Mobi Jet Oil - VOA

[MolaKule]

A Gulfstream Jet

True and I have modified the original question to:

What "terrestrial" global vehicle requires a 5 cSt@100C engine oil with only one base oil (POE) and three chemical components?

 

[MolaKule]

Lada Niva

I don't think Mobil Jet II qualifies as 5W30 to 15W40 engine oil.

 

[chris719]

I don't think Mobil Jet II qualifies as 5W30 to 15W40 engine oil.

Drink enough vodka and it seems like a good idea. Very forward thinking, it's almost like a 0W-12 without additive pack.

 

[ford250]

There is actually a uoa on mobil jet oil running in a car on Russian oil club

Took me by surprise !!!

 

[loneryder]

Remember that video of Russians milling a clear plastic oil pan and valve cover to show oil flow. I thought it was pretty neat to see what goes on inside your engine.

 

[ArthurArgentum]

Just for fun I found this on the Russian Oil Club site.

btw, may highly recommend this exceptional forum that offers a wealth of fascinating information. Although a translator (Google Translate) may be required, it's well worth the effort. Notably, this forum stands out as the only platform on the internet that delves into the true origins of the numbers 20, 30, 40, and 50 in the SAE marking, revealing their original significance in terms of time (in seconds). Moreover, this forum provides unique insights into intriguing cases such as the correlation between the use of viscous PAO base and the infamous Mobile AV 1 disaster with showcases featuring vintage Mobil AV 1 advertisements that cleverly play with words like "synthetics" and "sin" -

https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_2023_04/av1.gif.103be17b7007d1a955ad81df8a871137.gif

 

[kschachn]

btw, may highly recommend this exceptional forum that offers a wealth of fascinating information. Although a translator (Google Translate) may be required, it's well worth the effort. Notably, this forum stands out as the only platform on the internet that delves into the true origins of the numbers 20, 30, 40, and 50 in the SAE marking, revealing their original significance in terms of time (in seconds). Moreover, this forum provides unique insights into intriguing cases such as the correlation between the use of viscous PAO base and the infamous Mobile AV 1 disaster with showcases featuring vintage Mobil AV 1 advertisements that cleverly play with words like "synthetics" and "sin" -

https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_2023_04/av1.gif.103be17b7007d1a955ad81df8a871137.gif

So Arthur you haven’t properly introduced yourself here. You’re new it says? Where are you from? What’s your background?

And you have a connection to silver?

 

[ArthurArgentum]

So Arthur you haven’t properly introduced yourself here. You’re new it says? Where are you from? What’s your background?

And you have a connection to silver?

Allow me to formally introduce myself. I originate from Russia and hold a deep respect and admiration for the American culture. Due to my use of VPN, my online presence may not always align with my physical location, as I frequently find myself traversing the enchanting landscapes of Europe.

Now, let's delve into my intriguing connection to silver. With a background in chemistry, I possess a profound understanding of chemical elements and their compounds. In various online communities, you might have come across me under monikers like Zinc or Molybdenum—names associated with elements that can be detected through used oil analysis. And while it may surprise you, traces of silver can indeed be found in certain UOAs. However, it's important to note that this connection is not directly related to PСMO, as its composition is not optimal for those particular Ag-containing bearings A regular PCMO may pose a threat to silver bearings due to their chemical incompatibility..

 

[Tom NJ]

It's pretty clear to me that virgin oxidation value does give you some idea of the ester component.

• Mobil Jet Oil: Virgin Oxidation 219 (100% POE)
• Valvoline Premium Restore: Virgin Oxidation 110 (stated to be 50% POE BY Valvoline)
• Red Line: Virgin Oxidation (90-134) (Dave Granquist said up to 40% in some grades; I'm guessing 20-40% range)
• Amsoil: Virgin Oxidation (47-50)
• Mobil 1 ESP: Virgin Oxidation (38)
• Mobil 1 EP: Virgin Oxidation (B] (suspected AN's don't show up similarly)
  

As you can see, the amount of ester correlates very closely with virgin oxidation reading. It's not 100% accurate, but pretty **** close. It also matches what the Russian oil folks and Spanish YT channel have stated.

*Dave G. sealed it for me when he told me approximately how much is used in some grades (up to 40%)(RL's oxidation values range from 90-134).

I just realized I posted a VOA of this before.

Yes there is a correlation, but not enough to assign percentages. The oxidation value by FTIR does not measure ester base oils per se, it measures carbonyl bonds, C=O. Ester base oils contain C=O bonds, but so do some of the additives. If the oxidation value of an oil is significantly higher than the average conventional oil it usually indicates the presence of some ester base oil content, but how much is difficult to say without knowing which ester is being used.

Ester base oils used in motor oils may contain one, two, three, four, six or more C=O containing ester linkages as well as a broad range of molecular weights, so to calibrate the oxidation value against the ester content you need to know which ester(s) are being used and the effect of the additive system. Best you can say is the higher the oxidation value above an average conventional non-ester oil, the higher the ester base oil content is likely to be, but assigning a percentage without composition information and calibration is just a guess.

Mobil Jet II contains two esters, about 95% of a POE and 2-3% TCP. The POE has four ester groups, while the ester used in Valvoline Premium Restore (assuming it is Priolube 1973) has only two ester groups, and a higher molecular weight. Apples to oranges.

 

[buster]

Thanks Tom. In that case it remains unknown.

 

[si1491]

The thing to keep in mind with this type POE turbine oil is its application in turbine engines and how different it is compared to a reciprocating gas engine. In my experience, the turbine oil cools (primary application) and lubricates roller and ball bearings that support the engine shafts. These bearings are enclosed in separate sumps (dry sumps), that are isolated from, and NOT exposed to combustion byproducts. The fact that they are not exposed to combustion byproducts allows them to be formulated in a more "raw" manner, reducing the necessity for additives. Since they are exposed to high temperatures of the materials and parts involved, the necessity for POE base stock makes sense. From what I have experienced, the oil used can continue to be used for many hundreds, or thousands of hours before analysis will require the oil to be changed.

 

[MolaKule]

The thing to keep in mind with this type POE turbine oil is its application in turbine engines and how different it is compared to a reciprocating gas engine. In my experience, the turbine oil cools (primary application) and lubricates roller and ball bearings that support the engine shafts. These bearings are enclosed in separate sumps (dry sumps), that are isolated from, and NOT exposed to combustion byproducts. The fact that they are not exposed to combustion byproducts allows them to be formulated in a more "raw" manner, reducing the necessity for additives. Since they are exposed to high temperatures of the materials and parts involved, the necessity for POE base stock makes sense. From what I have experienced, the oil used can continue to be used for many hundreds, or thousands of hours before analysis will require the oil to be changed.

The bearings are enclosed in "bearing cells" with the oil being cooled by fuel-to-oil and air-to-oil heat exchangers. Bearing cells do have a certain percentage of oil seepage.

While not exposed to combustion by-products, the bearing cells supporting the turbine (hot) section are exposed to high temperatures via thermal conduction. Topping-off of the oil reservoir is the usual procedure.

These special POE esters are the only ones capable of withstanding the operating conditions encountered.

 

[4WD]

The bearings are enclosed in "bearing cells" with the oil being cooled by fuel-to-oil and air-to-oil heat exchangers. Bearing cells do have a certain percentage of oil seepage.

While not exposed to combustion by-products, the bearing cells supporting the turbine (hot) section are exposed to high temperatures via thermal conduction. Topping-off of the oil reservoir is the usual procedure.

These special POE esters are the only ones capable of withstanding the operating conditions encountered.

Was watching them top up a GE-90 in Tokyo - the little Mobil Jet containers looked like cans from the 60’s …

 

[thastinger]

I use Royco 899 gas turbine oil in my 2 superchargers, have for 15 years now. No bearing failures to date. Stuff smells terrible.

 

[michael007]

I use Royco 899 gas turbine oil in my 2 superchargers, have for 15 years now. No bearing failures to date. Stuff smells terrible.

Came across a review earlier today which said something similar. My search shows the viscosity of supercharger oil is normally at least 10 cSt @ 100C so the results are surprising

Was watching them top up a GE-90 in Tokyo - the little Mobil Jet containers looked like cans from the 60’s …

Didn't realize the single quart also came in a can until reading your post. Pretty cool

 

[ArthurArgentum]

the ester used in Valvoline Premium Restore (assuming it is Priolube 1973) has only two ester groups, and a higher molecular weight

If I may inquire, in the context of supplementing a racing oil with a 15-20% ester, which do you believe would yield more favorable results: TOTM or TMPTO? While I personally lean towards TOTM, I must humbly admit that my expertise in esters is limited. I would greatly appreciate your insights on this matter.

 

[Tom NJ]

If I may inquire, in the context of supplementing a racing oil with a 15-20% ester, which do you believe would yield more favorable results: TOTM or TMPTO? While I personally lean towards TOTM, I must humbly admit that my expertise in esters is limited. I would greatly appreciate your insights on this matter.

Depends what you want to achieve. Both have the same viscosity @ 100°C but differ vastly in Viscosity Index. TOTM (Tri 2-Ethylhexyl Trimellitate) has a VI of only 82 while TMPTO (Trimethylolpropane Trioleate) has a VI of about 190. As a result the TOTM will thin much more if operating temperatures exceed 100°C. TOTM is much more oxidatively stable than TMPTO and so is better for high temperatures and extended drains, but TMPTO has much better lubricity and less effect on seals. Also TMPTO is biodegradable while TOTM is not.

If the oil will be changed after each race and the engine rebuilt frequently, the oxidative stability of the ester @ 15-20% should not be an issue. Under those circumstances I would favor the TMPTO for its lubricity benefits. Another alternative is Priolube 1973 (Neopentylglycol Diisostearate) from Croda which combines high lubricity with good oxidative stability, high VI, biodegradability, and seal compatibility.

 

[ArthurArgentum]

Depends what you want to achieve. Both have the same viscosity @ 100°C but differ vastly in Viscosity Index. TOTM (Tri 2-Ethylhexyl Trimellitate) has a VI of only 82 while TMPTO (Trimethylolpropane Trioleate) has a VI of about 190. As a result the TOTM will thin much more if operating temperatures exceed 100°C. TOTM is much more oxidatively stable than TMPTO and so is better for high temperatures and extended drains, but TMPTO has much better lubricity and less effect on seals. Also TMPTO is biodegradable while TOTM is not.

If the oil will be changed after each race and the engine rebuilt frequently, the oxidative stability of the ester @ 15-20% should not be an issue. Under those circumstances I would favor the TMPTO for its lubricity benefits. Another alternative is Priolube 1973 (Neopentylglycol Diisostearate) from Croda which combines high lubricity with good oxidative stability, high VI, biodegradability, and seal compatibility.

Thank you very much. I chose the option that seemed to have less tension. Tension is a function of polarity, although I may not have the exact data. If we were to compare all three of these esters in terms of surface/interfacial tension, which one would have the lowest value (steel surface)?

 

[Tom NJ]

Thank you very much. I chose the option that seemed to have less tension. Tension is a function of polarity, although I may not have the exact data. If we were to compare all three of these esters in terms of surface/interfacial tension, which one would have the lowest value (steel surface)?

I don't have any data on surface tension but can rank them on polarity. TOTM is clearly more polar because of the benzene ring and short alcohols. According to the Non Polarity Index (NPI) calculation, TMPTO should be a bit less polar than Priolube 1973. However, because of the radically different chemical structures (benzene ring in TOTM, unsaturation in TMPTO, and branching in Priolube 1973), polarity may not correlate with surface tension. Some empirical testing would be a better approach.

 

[930.engineering]

What "terrestrial" global vehicle requires a 5 cSt@100C engine oil with only one base oil (POE) and three chemical components?

That Lada which is running during -40°C winters and most certainly hardly ever reaches +100°C operating temps. Actual viscosity with this jet oil? Probably from two digit to four digit centistokes all the time. That's why I guess.
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