MMO, the real deal.

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Give it up already. The techniques used are improper, and in the bleeding match that is a legal battle, it's doubtful that the FTC did actually have suitable witnesses.

Zmax made their case. It was the FTC that started the case, but it is doubtful the FTC could have effectively countered the Zmax arguments.

And I should give it up?

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Give it up already. The techniques used are improper, and in the bleeding match that is a legal battle, it's doubtful that the FTC did actually have suitable witnesses.

Zmax made their case. It was the FTC that started the case, but it is doubtful the FTC could have effectively countered the Zmax arguments.

And I should give it up?


If I were consulting you I would have recommended you give up a couple of weeks ago. Grasping at straws rarely does good.

 

[keesue]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
And I should give it up?


Brilliant question and answer in one.

 

[Mystic]

Personally I think it is time for this thread to be locked up. This post started out as a post about a guy getting positive use out of MMO and typically it was hijacked and has become a war of words between the ZMax supporters and those opposed to ZMax.

Personally I have never used ZMax and I probably never will. I worked hard for my money and I want quality products and straight talk. I don't want somebody telling me how the FTC was defeated in court and all of that. I want straight talk about what a product will do.

I would much rather see a post here where guys were ALLOWED to discuss a product without the post being hijacked. I can make up my own mind if I want to try the product or not based on what guys say and if I think I can believe those guys or not.

I have tried a few products that worked for me. For example, I tried Lubegard power steering supplement when I had a power steering unit that was squealing in cold weather and that Lubegard power steering supplement worked immediately and the squeal did not come back. People can believe that or not. It was good enough proof for me without getting into some sort of FTC mumbo jumbo.

I have no idea if Molakule has written professional papers or not. Expecting a guy at this website to reveal who he is and what professional scientific papers he has authored is silly. Nobody is going to give out their actual name here. I sure will not.

And if guys want to argue about ZMax START YOUR OWN POST! It seems every time there is a post started about MMO or Kreen somebody comes along to hijack the post.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
idiot lawyers

In all of this epic thread, my favorite two words! They go hand in hand.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have no idea if Molakule has written professional papers or not. Expecting a guy at this website to reveal who he is and what professional scientific papers he has authored is silly. Nobody is going to give out their actual name here. I sure will not.

Author or not, I hope you have the good taste not to trash professionals in the field who are not even part of the conversation or government agencies simply doing their job, because you personally disagree with their documented scientific conclusions.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
And if guys want to argue about ZMax START YOUR OWN POST! It seems every time there is a post started about MMO or Kreen somebody comes along to hijack the post.

MMO is good. I use it. I like it. It's also relatively inexpensive - < $4.00 per quart. Zmax is running about $20 per pint. I doubt that it's 10 times better.

Another user mentioned this, but the MMO cans and bottles are the perfect advertisement - the red color and weird graphics make them stand out. Stack them on the end of the row - no sign needed.

 

[Mystic]

Dang, you have made the perfect case right there for not using ZMax! You say ZMax is ten times more expensive and you doubt it is ten times better. That is a good enough argument right there for not using it! I am glad you agree with that!

And I am not trashing professionals in the field and disagreeing with their documented scientific conclusions. I said that you can't expect a guy to disclose his name, who he is, and what scientific papers he may have authored at this website. If I was Dr. Albert Einstein I would not tell anybody here.

 

[MolaKule]

Maybe Dave5358 can come out of one of his fantasy scenarios, and start another thread to answer this question:

A point source emitting 10^7 thermal neutrons per second is located 15 cm in a body of D2O at room temperature.

What is the thermal neutron flux in the D20 at that distance?

Hint: The answer should be in Neutrons/cm^2-sec.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
idiot lawyers

In all of this epic thread, my favorite two words! They go hand in hand.

Look on the bright side: the lawyers managed to get the FTC vs Zmax flap resolved. Final. Fini. Finished. That's something. Consider an alternative: have it resolved on BITOG???

For readers in general, the details of the FTC vs Zmax flap are worthwhile reading.
- It tells you a bit about how the FTC works (or doesn't work).
- There is a ton of information available on Zmax - much more than on most other oil/fuel additives.
- Whether you agree with the conclusions or not, at least a reader can see the kinds of documentation that Zmax thought was important in their technical portfolio.
- There is some insight into the types of expert witnesses who are called in these cases, and how their testimony was formatted
- How much $$ the research costs to defend against an FTC complaint.
- Lenckite / Avblend / Zmax is an interesting slice of American history, spanning 70 years or so.

At $20 per pint, make mine MMO.

 

[Mystic]

dave5358 said:

"At $20 per pint, make mine MMO."

You mean to tell me we have gone through all of this, you arguing about all of that court stuff involving the FTC and the makers of ZMax, and because of the cost of ZMax you will use MMO? I can understand somebody getting interested in something and studying all that happened in court between the FTC and the makers of ZMax. But after all of that, you decide on cost considerations that MMO will be good enough?

I think, based on the cost differences, I could have made my decision without spending so much time analyzing what happened between the FTC and the maker of ZMax in court. But I guess you probably had a lot of fun. Oh well.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Molakule, if you have done anything of any professional significance, in any field, please share it with us. Nothing shows up on WorldCat. Nothing on SAE, basically, nothing.


Did you spell MolaKule correctly?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
idiot lawyers

In all of this epic thread, my favorite two words! They go hand in hand.

Look on the bright side: the lawyers managed to get the FTC vs Zmax flap resolved. Final. Fini. Finished. That's something. Consider an alternative: have it resolved on BITOG???


Good point, if this thread is any indication it will never get resolved here. But that still doesn't change my two favorite words of this thread.

 

[Mystic]

It was an epic thread. Is it finished yet?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Dave5358: Author or not, I hope you have the good taste not to trash professionals in the field who are not even part of the conversation or government agencies simply doing their job, because you personally disagree with their documented scientific conclusions.


If the experimentation is flawed, if the conclusions are flawed, if the science does not support your flawed conclusions, if the information is contradictory, and your use of scientific terms is in error, then yes it the duty of any scientist to criticize those flawed results.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Personally I think it is time for this thread to be locked up. This post started out as a post about a guy getting positive use out of MMO and typically it was hijacked and has become a war of words between the ZMax supporters and those opposed to ZMax.

Personally I have never used ZMax and I probably never will. I worked hard for my money and I want quality products and straight talk. I don't want somebody telling me how the FTC was defeated in court and all of that. I want straight talk about what a product will do.

I would much rather see a post here where guys were ALLOWED to discuss a product without the post being hijacked. I can make up my own mind if I want to try the product or not based on what guys say and if I think I can believe those guys or not.

I have tried a few products that worked for me. For example, I tried Lubegard power steering supplement when I had a power steering unit that was squealing in cold weather and that Lubegard power steering supplement worked immediately and the squeal did not come back. People can believe that or not. It was good enough proof for me without getting into some sort of FTC mumbo jumbo.

I have no idea if Molakule has written professional papers or not. Expecting a guy at this website to reveal who he is and what professional scientific papers he has authored is silly. Nobody is going to give out their actual name here. I sure will not.

And if guys want to argue about ZMax START YOUR OWN POST! It seems every time there is a post started about MMO or Kreen somebody comes along to hijack the post.



No kidding.


Molekule has shared a significant amount of knowledge and experience here with us laymen and as far as his professional endeavours I've got no doubts he is what he claims to be.
He's seen fit to help many of us wade through the marketing hype and buzzwords that many lubricant manufacturers use so that we can make an informed decision based on actual fact and not marketing mumbo jumbo.
He doesn't spout off personal opinions for the most part and when he makes one of his rare recommendations he explains why,so as far as I'm concerned the man is one of bitogs few assets.
When it comes to oil I feel molekule's word is gospel and we are lucky to have him.

Why has this thread devolved to zmax. The other thread gets canned so this one became the mud slinging alternative.

Let's get to the meat here. Zmax didn't win anything. They had to adjust their wording to the very generic terms they use today.
They say by virtue of cleaning that fuel economy may improve. By virtue of cleaning efficiency may improve as well as other very generic terms that may be accomplished by virtue of cleaning,which tells me a clean engine will not benefit from its use.
And anyone who makes a flush type additive could make the claims zmax makes as long as they disclaim that the improvements are by virtue of cleaning.
I have and keep an open mind. I've used many additives over the years and I work hard for my money so if there is no benefit then I don't buy it again.
I used zmax in my 99 silverado when I first got it many years ago. There was no change in fuel consumption whatsoever so I never bought it again.
That same truck some time later got a can if mos2 added to the oil and there was a significant fuel economy improvement therefore I bought mos2 again and still use it to this day.
Why?
Because in my experience with the product the savings in fuel was exponentially more than the cost of the additive. Simple.
And over the years using mos2 I've also found that in my equipment at work requires less expensive maintenance and the engines last longer,which saves me money.
Let's be real here. It's all about money. Cost vs return. Only an idiot repeatedly buys a products that doesn't perform as advertised,or doesn't save them at least the cost of the additive in some way shape or form.
I'm not in the business of spending money on products with no return on the investment. Whether it's tools and equipment or maintenance products got those tools,if it doesn't make/save me money I don't buy it.
Mos2 saves me money in fuel and my equipment lasts longer in service,which means the return on investment puts me ahead,which is why I continue to buy the stuff.
If zmax saved me fuel or extended the service life of my equipment then you can bet I'd be writing that the product works and I'd buy it however that's not the case.
Now that I've learned about it's cleaning ability I may try it if I acquire a vehicle/engine with significant deposits however once clean I'll be adding a product I know works.
Trusty mos2. If it didn't work I wouldn't keep buying it. It's just that simple.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Personally I think it is time for this thread to be locked up. This post started out as a post about a guy getting positive use out of MMO and typically it was hijacked and has become a war of words between the ZMax supporters and those opposed to ZMax.


You don't want *any* discussion. A discussion involves the good and the bad. All you want is posts that praise whatever product you favor.

Originally Posted By: Mystic

I want straight talk about what a product will do.


All you want are anecdotes about what a product will do. This product really has no place in today's motor oil formulations. And it does not diffuse or "soak" into metal.

By the way, anecdotes or testimonials backed by neither facts or science are nothing more than uninformed opinions.


Originally Posted By: Mystic

I would much rather see a post here where guys were ALLOWED to discuss a product


No, you only want people who will join you around the altar praising a product.

Originally Posted By: Mystic

I have tried a few products that worked for me.


Yeah, all those posts of yours praising ARX show that.

Originally Posted By: Mystic

And if guys want to argue about ZMax START YOUR OWN POST! It seems every time there is a post started about MMO or Kreen somebody comes along to hijack the post.


In case you forgot, there was a *thread*, not post, a post is what you make in a thread, about Zmax. You posted in it, but had nothing to say on whether it "soaks" or diffuses into metal.

Oh, can you show any ARX *thread* where you complained about it being hijacked?

 

[Mystic]

Thanks Clevy. Where have you been? I have not seen you much around here recently. I trust what you say. I think you are a straight forward guy. I don't want to hear a big long discussion about the FTC and ZMax in court. When I go to the Oil Additives Section I want to find out about various products and read what guys are saying about those products.

 

[rdalek]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
dave5358 said:

"At $20 per pint, make mine MMO."

You mean to tell me we have gone through all of this, you arguing about all of that court stuff involving the FTC and the makers of ZMax, and because of the cost of ZMax you will use MMO? I can understand somebody getting interested in something and studying all that happened in court between the FTC and the makers of ZMax. But after all of that, you decide on cost considerations that MMO will be good enough?

I think, based on the cost differences, I could have made my decision without spending so much time analyzing what happened between the FTC and the maker of ZMax in court. But I guess you probably had a lot of fun. Oh well.


I have never used Zmax either but as I posted long ago in this thread, I do use MMO for several things. That doesn't change the fact that Zmax was sued and able to defend its product and is still selling it with claims people here can't get changed. If the people that disagree with the Zmax claims could REALLY prove the claims false, they would do what I said long ago, share it with the FTC. Nothing else is going to change those claims. NOTHING. I repeat, NOTHING.

I also said long ago, I don't want any company claiming to sell something that it doesn't have or do. If I go buy a can of soup that says 13 ounces on it, I want 13 ounces. I don't want 10 ounces. I may not want 15 ounces either. If I were to buy a product with such a difference, I'd be reporting it to the proper people. Admittedly, I'd start with the company that made it first then move on up from there if needed. If needed, yes, I'd be calling the Govt agency that regulates that sort of thing, which I'm pretty sure would be the FTC.

I might add, Trajan was the one that ran this topic off into the Zmax area. I might also add, it was brought up here because the other Zmax thread was closed even tho the debate was still ongoing and as far as I could see, no serious breaking of rules although some people resort to silly tactics when they can't overcome facts. I mentioned before that I moderate a political site. It is exceptionally rare that we lock a thread. The very reason it is so rare is because of just what happened here. That same topic just moves somewhere else even if it is somewhere it doesn't really need to be. Someone may want to give that some thought in the future. Maybe this is a learning experience for whoever locked the Zmax thread.

 

[keesue]

Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Here is testament to Marvel Mystery Oil I thought I would share, for both the supporters and haters of MMO on this forum:

In the 1960s and 1970s, my grandfather was an 18 wheeler owner/operator, often driving cross country. He routinely got 1 million +! miles between rebuilds simply by always using 20% MMO and 80% engine oil. Of course this included regular recommended oil and filter changes, and engine tune ups. Keep in mind that this was during a time of greatly inferior oil base stock and detergent quality. When the engines were finally gone through they were amazingly clean, stuff of legend among mechanics in the area.

Discuss.

Good stuff MMO.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: rdalek

I might add, Trajan was the one that ran this topic off into the Zmax area.


Actually, that was you and your cohort. Don't blame me because the guy who runs MMO's board claims it soaks into metal.

A claim as bogus as Oil-Chem's.

Nice to see you're running true to form. Back to the ignore list with you.