MMO/Intake Cleanliness - Observations

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I've become pretty attached to MMO use since trying it after first visiting this site some time ago. I notice quieter idling and quicker starts. However, I've always been curious about its affect on engine cleanliness, as this is the formost reason generally cited to support its use.

I recently completed some preventive work on my daily driver ('89 BMW 325i) which involved removing the intake manifold to replace a variety of wear items in that part of the engine bay, and was very interested to see the condition of the valves and the intake.

First I'll mention that this engine is known for having problems with intake valve desposits. The particular cause doesn't seem to be known, but when the cars were new BMW dealers spent a lot of time and money repairing cars under warranty by blasting the valves with walnut shells to clean them, sometimes repeatedly on the same car. It's enough of a concern that it was among the reasons I started using MMO in the first place.

Anyway, I was very pleased to find that most of the intake valves in my (12v straight six) engine were pretty much spotless. These all had a clean, slightly shiny appearance, and were in fact actually visibly coated with a light layer of shiny reflective oil, clearly the MMO itself as no other source of any such substance seems possible.

The valves that were not perfectly clean all had some very light carbon deposits of the sort that I've seen routinely on intake valves in the past, with an important exception. The covering layer was very thin, it covered only a few parts of the valve, and most importantly the pattern formed by the deposits looked very much like the final residual remains you'd expect to see in an incomplete cleaning process. In other words, if you clean any stubborn deposit from any surface, you see a characteristic appearance develop as clean areas emerge between remaining areas of deposit, then enlarge as the deposit areas shrink. It is different from what you see when the deposit is actually forming. This is the type of pattern I was looking at.

My belief is that the valves did have carbon deposits in the recent past, and that MMO has indeed removed the majority of those deposits and is continuing to remove the rest. The engine has just under 240,000 miles on it, and I've been using MMO for perhaps the last 8,000 or so.

Here, then, is a list of beneficial results that I believe can be attributed to MMO with a fairly high degree of confidence:

- Quieter running. I interpret this to be the result of a cushioning effect on the valves and possibly the top piston ring (compression ring).

- Quicker starting. Speculation I've read is that this is due to MMO maintaining cleanliness of the spark plug electrodes. Sounds reasonable to me.

- Intake valve cleanliness. I'm now a believer. Among other things this removes one source of driveability problems, and very likely extends the life of valve guides, valve seats, valves and possibly valve guide seals.

FWIW I've been using the stuff pretty religiously at the recommended dose of 4oz per ten gallons of gasoline in the tank. A clattery idle reminds me pretty quickly when I forget to add a dose.

- Glenn
 
Well Glenn I use MMO Religiously in everything I
own usually give it about 8oz per 10 gallons.
Had a Ford 3.8 V-6 apart once (HEAD GASKET OF COURSE) and the engine was so clean inside
you wouldn't believe it. Gooood Stuff
 
Glenn, do you use it in the gas exclusively? Why not add some to the crankcase as well? Wouldn't that increase the overall cleaning effect? I'm currently using FP/LC in my 94 BMW, but wouldn't mind trying some....
 
unDummy,

I used synthetic (M1) in this engine for quite a while before switching to dino. The synthetic had no affect on the varnish deposits, which were already there when I bought the car.

Also, while I'd agree that deposits on intake valves are ubiquitous, it's rare that it actually causes a driveability problem with enough frequency to merit TSBs or special warranty services from the dealer. BMW had a particular problem with this engine, and as far as I know has not had the same problem with other engines. There is something in the design of this intake, or possibly the way the cars were driven when new, that makes it problematic in this regard.

Finally, there are lots of injector/intake cleaners, and I don't doubt they work, but the cost (extremely low) and other benefits of MMO make for a package that is well suited to routine use with every fill. I agree it's a good idea to use a specific injector cleaner every once in a while too, but I'd compare MMO more to something like FP - except it is, again, cheaper - and I've still never gotten a decent answer on what FP does or how it works (not one good enough to justify the higher cost, anyway.) Whenever I ask I am greeted by a deafening silence.

- Glenn
 
I've taken to using MMO in all of our vehicles and don't use FP anymore. I think it has been an effective long term additive.
I still will continue to use LC though.
 
I was using Lucas UCL and I was happy with the results I was getting (smoother idle, better mpg) I decided to take a flyer and try out some FP60. So far I have not been impressed but it has only been a tank and a half. Seems like more chattering under the hood and mpg has been a bit down. (30 mpg vs 32 with the Lucas) Not to mention the stuff stinks to high heaven!!

Can you use Lucas in conjunction with MMO or are you duplicating things with overkill? I've always been curious about MMO and I know my Dad loved the stuff.

Is there any difference or benefit to using MMO or Lucas? Is there one thing that one of them does that the other doesn't?


Goose
patriot.gif
 
I'm not familiar with Lucas UCL, but one thing about MMO that may be beneficial is that it is a combination of an oil and a solvent. That is what gives it the dual cleaning/coating effect. You can search the archives here and learn more about what it specifically contains, if you'd like.

I don't know if the Lucas has solvent/cleaning abilities or not.

- Glenn
 
I am also new to using MMO. I have also used Techron recently. I am not sure what is happening but my milage has definitly increased. My first 5 tanks of MMO I saw no change in milage. Then one tank of techron and milage went up just a tiny bit. Next 2 tanks of MMO it continued to go up and now is giving 1-2 more miles to the gallon. This is more mpg than when car was new or ever before. Plan to continue with both products and continue to monitor milage.
 
I don't notice any mileage improvement from MMO, although I suppose if you had dirty injectors, maybe the MMO could continue to remove deposits the Techron had loosened?

Or perhaps it could be something else.

- Glenn
 
Funny you should ask!

I used to think MMO was the prototypical snake oil. Now that I believe I know better, my opinion of the company's claims for the product has improved. Where before I would not have considered running any oil-thinning "cleaner" in the crankcase, I'm beginning to think about doing just that.

In particular, as I just posted elsewhere, I've been disappointed so far by A-RX's ability to clean varnish from under my valve cover (one rinse phase to go, at best only minimal cleaning of varnish, maybe none), and I've been toying with the idea of running MMO after the A-RX treatment is complete. I figure if the varnish is still under the valve cover, the engine is not REALLY clean.

So, I'm wondering about all the usual things people bring up. Might bits of stuff get loose and cause damage? Will it work at all? Does it even matter in the first place? The engine runs great and has no problems of any kind, but I'd still prefer to have its insides clean.

If I do it, I figure it's best done in the cooler months of the year when the oil will be less stressed by heat.

What's your '94 BMW? I also have an E34 535i and E32 740i.

- Glenn
 
It all depends on what you want cleaned.

I don't need it in my oil 'cause I use a synthetic with a sane OCI.

But, any of the cleaners/UCLs/2-stroke oils should be considered for some regular use. Either start per tank maintenance dosing or a shock every 3-5k miles or 4 times a year.
Since all products have their pros/cons, I'd also consider using a competitor product once in a while.

The dirty intake valve isn't a BMW problem. A typical BMW owner wants performance. So, loss in performance is 'recognized' more quickly. All cars have this problem!

How many automakers have injector cleaning or valve deposit specs??????

Do an online search for the BMW or Mercedes IVD tests. You'll find out what the tests are and if you look closely, you'll find that there aren't too many injector/valve cleaners that are certified or claim to meet the few automaker specs.
 
I like MMO in my E30 318i (M42), though too much and MPG drops bigtime!

Any of the big 3 adds (MMO, Lucas, FP) are good, though rumour has had it that FP does not effect used oil analysis at all, and Lucas does...

FWIW...

JMH
 
Bavarian Autosports sells Ventil Sauber which I think is similar to B12 in composition. It is recommended to use it as a hotsoak. Sucking it through a vacuum line to clean out the top cylinders. I have essentially the same engine. with 311k on it. Ive never bothered to lift the valve cover. I basically dont just to confound the E 28 guys I hang with. Other than Timing belts , the furthest Ive gotten into the motor was replacing the injectors and plug wires at 262 k. A couple of hours driveway time Why did you take the intake off on yours? I use MMO about every 3rd fill up. The car likes it, I like the smell and the 3 $ a qt price. Like you, I havent noticed any increase in MPG, but then it hasnt decreased as it often does in winter driving.
 
I tried a couple of the Ventil Sauber products and couldn't tell whether they did anything, much like Techron Concentrate and BG44K. But I just put it in the tank.

I pulled the intake to replace the coolant lines that run underneath, behind and around it. In the E30, the M20 has a T-shaped heater hose that connects the thermostat housing, the heater core and the coolant resevoir. That hose runs behind the engine wiring loom where it is bracketed to the manifold. I also wanted to clean the injectors and replace the seals since I suspected some might be leaking a little, and that's easier with the manifold off. And, while it was off, I took care of some leaking power steering lines and a couple of other things, easy to get to with the whole left side of the engine bay cleared out.

How long have you owned your car? I assume it's a 528e since you mention both E28s and the M20. The engine requires valve adjustments from time to time, or at least it should! I'd check the clearances if I were you.

- Glenn
 
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