Approximately 3 months on this oil, about half of miles long trips and half around town.
MMO 20% Rotella 15w40 (80%) 4650 Mi 2003 Deville
- Thread starter ronrackley
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Nice!
I would ask, why all the MMO? Cleanup of a new car? A BITOG High Colonic ( : < )?
Seriously, I don't see that it gave you any better UOA than straight R-T would have. Are there any elements in the MMO that would show up in a UOA? Honestly, given the high amount of MMO, I am surprised the viscosity isn't lower and the same for the the flashpoint. What is the Viscosity of the MMO, I wonder? Anyway, I'm surprised at how good this looks overall. Not ready to dump any MMO in, but my "anti" meter moved closer to center on the idea.
Seriously, I don't see that it gave you any better UOA than straight R-T would have. Are there any elements in the MMO that would show up in a UOA? Honestly, given the high amount of MMO, I am surprised the viscosity isn't lower and the same for the the flashpoint. What is the Viscosity of the MMO, I wonder? Anyway, I'm surprised at how good this looks overall. Not ready to dump any MMO in, but my "anti" meter moved closer to center on the idea.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I would ask, why all the MMO? Cleanup of a new car? A BITOG High Colonic ( : < )?
No problems at all, the UOA looks great!
As far as all the MMO, i've done it for years, family has done it for years, never had any real engine troubles - even during my wilder teenage driving years. Tried and proven...
Ron, I think you should keep doing what your doing. No reason to change a thing.
I would ask, why all the MMO? Cleanup of a new car? A BITOG High Colonic ( : < )?
No problems at all, the UOA looks great!
As far as all the MMO, i've done it for years, family has done it for years, never had any real engine troubles - even during my wilder teenage driving years. Tried and proven...
Ron, I think you should keep doing what your doing. No reason to change a thing.
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That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
Good catch on the TBN. Normally, you'd expect see it about 4 at that low mileage in a gasser.
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
Good catch on the TBN. Normally, you'd expect see it about 4 at that low mileage in a gasser.
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
We really don't know if it screwed up the Rotella. It might have helped it. Now if the OP did two runs w/o MMO using the same oil to remove the MMO, and repeated the test on a third OCI w/o MMO we'd have something to talk about. On that third OCI conditions and mileage would have to be the same w/o the MMO for the test to be fair. Problem is we'd never get the same conditions, and the engine would be older with more miles. A VOA would have given more data as well, we'd know exactly where the oil started. My understanding is that can vary somewhat too from one batch to the next.
Another thing to consider is if this was the first run with MMO it might have done some cleaning, and continued runs with the product could give even better results.
Honestly I think the report looks great, and would suggest the OP stay with what is working well for him. JMO
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
We really don't know if it screwed up the Rotella. It might have helped it. Now if the OP did two runs w/o MMO using the same oil to remove the MMO, and repeated the test on a third OCI w/o MMO we'd have something to talk about. On that third OCI conditions and mileage would have to be the same w/o the MMO for the test to be fair. Problem is we'd never get the same conditions, and the engine would be older with more miles. A VOA would have given more data as well, we'd know exactly where the oil started. My understanding is that can vary somewhat too from one batch to the next.
Another thing to consider is if this was the first run with MMO it might have done some cleaning, and continued runs with the product could give even better results.
Honestly I think the report looks great, and would suggest the OP stay with what is working well for him. JMO
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
I agree. This pretty much shows that MMO does nothing positive to the oil, and might even be harming it by lowering the TBN and Z/ph levels.
OP, did Blackstone know this was 1/5 MMO? I don't see any comments from them about it.
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
I agree. This pretty much shows that MMO does nothing positive to the oil, and might even be harming it by lowering the TBN and Z/ph levels.
OP, did Blackstone know this was 1/5 MMO? I don't see any comments from them about it.
Yeah, the combo flies, but is it necessary? Or beneficial? Those the questions. Demarpaint lines out the only way to know for sure. Of course if the owner, "feels" good about it, that's the main thing. DOes MMO cost more or less than the oil it replaced.
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Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
I agree. This pretty much shows that MMO does nothing positive to the oil, and might even be harming it by lowering the TBN and Z/ph levels.
OP, did Blackstone know this was 1/5 MMO? I don't see any comments from them about it.
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
This is a great example of how continuous use will keep and engine clean AND reduce wear numbers.
Any ZDDP dilution is well overcome by the other friction reduction properties of MMO.
MMO may cause the oil to lose it's TBN a little faster than normal, but has significant cleaning ability on its own (though different chemistries) so that any increased oxidation will not result in any deposit formation.
This UOA for me, along with the others we have seen, validates why I am using it in the oil (and fuel).
Seems everyone on here is real quick to assume that if the UOA is good, if could not possibly be because of the MMO - I would propose, we have seen enough of these good MMO UOAs (with differing base oils), that it is showing MMO contributes to reducing wear and engine cleanliness.
My 2 cents.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That's a pretty low TBN for Rotella at only 4600 miles. And all the MMO has dropped the Zn/P below 1000 PPM (not critical for this roller cam Northstar, but still).
It would have been great without all the MMO dilution. I've got nothing against MMO as a fuel additive for top-end lubrication, but it doesn't belong in the crankcase screwing up a superb oil like Rotella.
I agree. This pretty much shows that MMO does nothing positive to the oil, and might even be harming it by lowering the TBN and Z/ph levels.
OP, did Blackstone know this was 1/5 MMO? I don't see any comments from them about it.
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
This is a great example of how continuous use will keep and engine clean AND reduce wear numbers.
Any ZDDP dilution is well overcome by the other friction reduction properties of MMO.
MMO may cause the oil to lose it's TBN a little faster than normal, but has significant cleaning ability on its own (though different chemistries) so that any increased oxidation will not result in any deposit formation.
This UOA for me, along with the others we have seen, validates why I am using it in the oil (and fuel).
Seems everyone on here is real quick to assume that if the UOA is good, if could not possibly be because of the MMO - I would propose, we have seen enough of these good MMO UOAs (with differing base oils), that it is showing MMO contributes to reducing wear and engine cleanliness.
My 2 cents.
Wear is better than the universal averages, which is nice. Nice combo, if you like it, then stick to it!
I see in your sig you now have RTS 5w40, good choice.
I see in your sig you now have RTS 5w40, good choice.
To clarify some things that have been mentioned:
1. I bought this car used a few months ago. It was a very clean "Florida Cadillac" with low miles and seemingly good maintenance. A friend is a salesman at the Cadillac dealer where it was traded in and he "found" it for me.
2. I have never run MMO in a crankcase except to solve problems - usually 20% MMO for 500 to 1000 miles to silence a lifter in an engine with a poor history. I've done that several times since I started working on cars in the 1960s and always had good success.
3. I decided to run 20% MMO with the Rotella 15w40 for an OCI in this Cadillac for general cleaning just "for good measure" and, honestly, out of curiosity for what the analysis would look like.
4. I put 6 quarts of Rotella and 1 1/2 quarts of MMO in and ran for the whole OCI with it. The dipstick dropped about halfway down the cross-hatched area during the OCI - meaning usage of about a quart every 10,000 miles by extrapolation - and no make up oil was added.
5. Yes, I did list the specific mix of MMO and Rotella on the paperwork I sent to Blackstone. I don't know why they chose to show only the Rotella on the report.
6. I was pleasantly surprised by the report. The previous owner's maintenance must have indeed been excellent - and the MMO obviously performed very well for 4,650 miles.
7. After the OCI of the report, I followed my usual practice of using 100% RTS 5w40 with a new oil filter.
8. I will have a test run on the new oil at about the same interval. I assume it will look at least as good as this OCI. If not, I may have to rethink my avoidance of oil additives for routine use.
I hope this information is useful to everyone.
1. I bought this car used a few months ago. It was a very clean "Florida Cadillac" with low miles and seemingly good maintenance. A friend is a salesman at the Cadillac dealer where it was traded in and he "found" it for me.
2. I have never run MMO in a crankcase except to solve problems - usually 20% MMO for 500 to 1000 miles to silence a lifter in an engine with a poor history. I've done that several times since I started working on cars in the 1960s and always had good success.
3. I decided to run 20% MMO with the Rotella 15w40 for an OCI in this Cadillac for general cleaning just "for good measure" and, honestly, out of curiosity for what the analysis would look like.
4. I put 6 quarts of Rotella and 1 1/2 quarts of MMO in and ran for the whole OCI with it. The dipstick dropped about halfway down the cross-hatched area during the OCI - meaning usage of about a quart every 10,000 miles by extrapolation - and no make up oil was added.
5. Yes, I did list the specific mix of MMO and Rotella on the paperwork I sent to Blackstone. I don't know why they chose to show only the Rotella on the report.
6. I was pleasantly surprised by the report. The previous owner's maintenance must have indeed been excellent - and the MMO obviously performed very well for 4,650 miles.
7. After the OCI of the report, I followed my usual practice of using 100% RTS 5w40 with a new oil filter.
8. I will have a test run on the new oil at about the same interval. I assume it will look at least as good as this OCI. If not, I may have to rethink my avoidance of oil additives for routine use.
I hope this information is useful to everyone.
I remember asking Rich Kelley about running MMO in my oil for longer than the 5000 mile OCI that is listed in my owner's manual, he advised against doing this and sticking to what was in my owner's manual. If someone is concerned about TBN then maybe they could run a pint of MMO for the last 1000 miles of there OCI.
Originally Posted By: ronrackley
7. After the OCI of the report, I followed my usual practice of using 100% RTS 5w40 with a new oil filter.
8. I will have a test run on the new oil at about the same interval. I assume it will look at least as good as this OCI.
$20 says it looks BETTER. Northstars are super low-wearing for the most part- the low wear numbers are no surprise (Northstars just pull head bolts and threads out of the block when they're ready to die, rather than wearing away). The low TBN and obvious additive dilution won't be there without the MMO is my bet.
7. After the OCI of the report, I followed my usual practice of using 100% RTS 5w40 with a new oil filter.
8. I will have a test run on the new oil at about the same interval. I assume it will look at least as good as this OCI.
$20 says it looks BETTER. Northstars are super low-wearing for the most part- the low wear numbers are no surprise (Northstars just pull head bolts and threads out of the block when they're ready to die, rather than wearing away). The low TBN and obvious additive dilution won't be there without the MMO is my bet.
Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
My 2 cents.
Your financial contribution notwithstanding, Jax, the jury is still out (the jury being another UOA of straight Rotella) whether the MMO did anything more than the R-T could have done on it's own. It's highly speculative to make statements either way. I really don't have a horse in this race. If MMO helped here, great! If not, then we know.
I still have not been able to find the viscosity of MMO. I found what it's made from on another post.
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
My 2 cents.
Your financial contribution notwithstanding, Jax, the jury is still out (the jury being another UOA of straight Rotella) whether the MMO did anything more than the R-T could have done on it's own. It's highly speculative to make statements either way. I really don't have a horse in this race. If MMO helped here, great! If not, then we know.
I still have not been able to find the viscosity of MMO. I found what it's made from on another post.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
My 2 cents.
Your financial contribution notwithstanding, Jax, the jury is still out (the jury being another UOA of straight Rotella) whether the MMO did anything more than the R-T could have done on it's own. It's highly speculative to make statements either way. I really don't have a horse in this race. If MMO helped here, great! If not, then we know.
I still have not been able to find the viscosity of MMO. I found what it's made from on another post.
I seem to "know" that the viscosity of MMO is 5, but I can't remember where I first heard that. I am quite certain that I got that from an authoritative source at some time in the last 40 years, though.
My familiarity with automotive matters stems from the fact that three generations of my family ran automobile service places in my home town - from the time my grandfather opened his auto garage before WWI until a cousin closed his transmission shop when he retired a few years ago - and I worked in my father's shop in the 1960s before I left to study engineering in college and never went back. It is "in my blood" to tinker with cars, I guess you could say, and I always remember having some MMO around.
MMO is, and always has been, good stuff for what it is good for. The concept of using it in a crankcase for an entire OCI at 20% as recommended by the MMO company is a new one on me, though. I intend to follow through with a couple of more OCIs on this same engine to get to the truth. If the truth is that it is better to run it in a good sound engine than to just run a quality synthetic, that will seem weird to me too. I want to know, though.
Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
I would disagree, I would suggest that the addition of the MMO helped hold the wear numbers well below the universal averages through the cleaning, anti-wear, and friction reduction it is know for.
My 2 cents.
Your financial contribution notwithstanding, Jax, the jury is still out (the jury being another UOA of straight Rotella) whether the MMO did anything more than the R-T could have done on it's own. It's highly speculative to make statements either way. I really don't have a horse in this race. If MMO helped here, great! If not, then we know.
I still have not been able to find the viscosity of MMO. I found what it's made from on another post.
I seem to "know" that the viscosity of MMO is 5, but I can't remember where I first heard that. I am quite certain that I got that from an authoritative source at some time in the last 40 years, though.
My familiarity with automotive matters stems from the fact that three generations of my family ran automobile service places in my home town - from the time my grandfather opened his auto garage before WWI until a cousin closed his transmission shop when he retired a few years ago - and I worked in my father's shop in the 1960s before I left to study engineering in college and never went back. It is "in my blood" to tinker with cars, I guess you could say, and I always remember having some MMO around.
MMO is, and always has been, good stuff for what it is good for. The concept of using it in a crankcase for an entire OCI at 20% as recommended by the MMO company is a new one on me, though. I intend to follow through with a couple of more OCIs on this same engine to get to the truth. If the truth is that it is better to run it in a good sound engine than to just run a quality synthetic, that will seem weird to me too. I want to know, though.
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Here we have the beauty of being in the oil additive business, pretty hard to tell if an additive does anything, as many people believe. Another great UOA with the addition of MMO, but the only way to really know is do another UOA w/o it. As I said before from what I've read here on Bitog it will take at least 2 OCI's to clear the MMO out, then on the third one do the UOA. Oil fill would have to be from the same batch, same temps and same conditions so that it would be fair for the pro MMO team, and the anti MMO team. IMO we could never dupliate the conditions. Based on the UOA's I've seen containing MMO, and how my engines look inside, and run with the addition of MMO I feel the product has a lot of value. Again one mans opinion, I will continue to use it, and suggest to people who don't like it not to use it.
If I were the OP, I'd continue doing exactly what I did in this OCI, save the money spent on the UOA, and be very happy I found a great combo for my engine. JMO
BTW- Jim this reply was not directed at you.
If I were the OP, I'd continue doing exactly what I did in this OCI, save the money spent on the UOA, and be very happy I found a great combo for my engine. JMO
BTW- Jim this reply was not directed at you.
That TBN with 15W40 Rotella shoulf have been at the very least around 5-7 I think that Rotella 15W40 starts at 10-12 for tbn not 7 or 8 like PCMO so that is a huge drop. SInce the wear metals look good the only thing to blame is the MMO. In th abscence of anything else it has to be something and that something in this case has to be MMO. That TBN did not just say ti itself I fancy droping ot a low level just for the heck of it!!!!
It is not my car but I dare say this UOA is not right! SUre the wear numbers are good but that is just the begining. THis is a diesel oil that when used in the harsh diesel invironment can easily go well past 20,000 miles but in this case coulod hardly make it to 7000. THis car has a large sump so the only thing that is out of place is the 20%MMO. TBN is important!
It is not my car but I dare say this UOA is not right! SUre the wear numbers are good but that is just the begining. THis is a diesel oil that when used in the harsh diesel invironment can easily go well past 20,000 miles but in this case coulod hardly make it to 7000. THis car has a large sump so the only thing that is out of place is the 20%MMO. TBN is important!
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