Michelin Primacy mxv4 handling issues

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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Russell
I had 225/60x15 V rated Exalto A/S on the car prior to these tires. Had wandering as well........


Duuude!! This is valuable information. It means that the new tires aren't the problem. Why didn't tell us that at the beginning. Now erase everything anybody stated and start over.

I now vote for an alignment issue.

Not sure I previously mentioned too much or not enough.
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When I stated that I had wandering with the V rated tires that was before the following:

I installed my Firestone Winterforce winter tires in 205/65/15 size, replace my rear sub frame bushings and rear pitman arms. The parts and tires helped with “rear steering”. After all of these changes the rear steering was gone.

Then I installed the Michelin Primacy tires and the wandering had returned somewhat. I have only 100 miles on the tires (been out of town for a couple of days). Wandering seems to have diminished slightly. I am going for a front end alignment and see if that helps in any way. That said, the only thing they can adjust in the front toe
 
Originally Posted By: Russell
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Russell
I had 225/60x15 V rated Exalto A/S on the car prior to these tires. Had wandering as well........


Duuude!! This is valuable information. It means that the new tires aren't the problem. Why didn't tell us that at the beginning. Now erase everything anybody stated and start over.

I now vote for an alignment issue.

Not sure I previously mentioned too much or not enough.
smile.gif
When I stated that I had wandering with the V rated tires that was before the following:

I installed my Firestone Winterforce winter tires in 205/65/15 size, replace my rear sub frame bushings and rear pitman arms. The parts and tires helped with “rear steering”. After all of these changes the rear steering was gone.

Then I installed the Michelin Primacy tires and the wandering had returned somewhat. I have only 100 miles on the tires (been out of town for a couple of days). Wandering seems to have diminished slightly. I am going for a front end alignment and see if that helps in any way. That said, the only thing they can adjust in the front toe

Might be time to find a different shop. Fronts should always have toe/caster/camber adjustable. Some cars it is not as easy and you might need some new parts for it. Mnay people complained about the Sequoia alignments as being too hard to do. adjust one and other go out. Hunter on their "newer" at the time had a CAMM screen (software) that made it a breeze. That said talk to your shop, just because it's "in spec" doesn't mean it's good. There's a reason there is a range. The Sequoia's wandered everywhere and real unstable if the caster was at low end of range but held a great straight line at high end of range. I had a similar problem on my Corolla, new tech set it in range and car was horrible (used to be great). I found old paperwork and brought it back, they re-did it for free matching those specs and it was great again.

On the rear wheel drive cars many times not much is adjustable but if it is, again will make huge differences. Old Civic same deal rears were out but fronts were great and it was all over road. Brought to a different shop and watched just too learn. Tech showed how far out rears were (they were good before prior shop did a 4 wheel align). He fixed it and it was rock solid.

The better techs will work with you if you describe what is happening as long as no parts are worn.
 
For everyone.
I will be using a different alignment shop. Also, as far as I can find out, only teh toe in is adjustable on this year BMW. If there is anything else that can be adjusted, I would love to know what it iis.
 
Originally Posted By: Russell
For everyone.
I will be using a different alignment shop. Also, as far as I can find out, only teh toe in is adjustable on this year BMW. If there is anything else that can be adjusted, I would love to know what it iis.


First EVERYTHING is adjustable. It may not have come from the factory with adjustability, but there are ways around this. Plus, no vehicle should be allowed to leave an alignment shop out of spec. If you hear that the vehicle isn't adjustable, leave, and don't ever go back.

And lastly: I am of the opinion that published alignment tolerances are too wide - by half. The alignment needs to be within the inner half of the spec.

- AND -

There are vehicles that have too much camber to insure good tire wear - and BMW is one of them. If you want good tire wear, the alignment shop should dial out as much camber as they can. The problem is that the vehicle will lose handling. And if that is an issue, you need to decide which you want.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Russell
For everyone.
I will be using a different alignment shop. Also, as far as I can find out, only teh toe in is adjustable on this year BMW. If there is anything else that can be adjusted, I would love to know what it iis.


First EVERYTHING is adjustable. It may not have come from the factory with adjustability, but there are ways around this. Plus, no vehicle should be allowed to leave an alignment shop out of spec. If you hear that the vehicle isn't adjustable, leave, and don't ever go back.

And lastly: I am of the opinion that published alignment tolerances are too wide - by half. The alignment needs to be within the inner half of the spec.

- AND -

There are vehicles that have too much camber to insure good tire wear - and BMW is one of them. If you want good tire wear, the alignment shop should dial out as much camber as they can. The problem is that the vehicle will lose handling. And if that is an issue, you need to decide which you want.

Capriracer, You are coming from a knowledge/experience and expectation level that most of us do not even understand. That said, If there is nothing that is physically adjustable from the factory, how can it be adjusted? If you mean adding expensive non factory parts that is out of the question for this car.

If there are tricks/etc. I would appreciate knowing of theme so I can use that knowledge with the alignment tech. BTW, I got 63,000 miles outof my V rated Michelin Exaltos A/S tire with rotation every 10,000 miles.
 
Originally Posted By: Russell

Capriracer, You are coming from a knowledge/experience and expectation level that most of us do not even understand. That said, If there is nothing that is physically adjustable from the factory, how can it be adjusted? If you mean adding expensive non factory parts that is out of the question for this car.

If there are tricks/etc. I would appreciate knowing of theme so I can use that knowledge with the alignment tech. BTW, I got 63,000 miles out of my V rated Michelin Exaltos A/S tire with rotation every 10,000 miles.

Russell,
Many of the parts are not that expensive if needed but are made to replace factory stuff in case something is worn. Some allow shims to be installed or bolts turned etc. A good shop will be able to help you. At worst and probably more $$ but the BMW dealer probably has everything to make it right.

Here is some reading below from TundraSolutuions Alignment info www.tundrasolutions.com

The guy "DJ" worked for Hunter writing software. His specs for the Tundra/Sequoia were like Gospel. Everybody that followed his direction had great results, myself included. Every car has it's own sweet spot. Getting good wear as you means it was wearing at least flat but could still be unstable (caster).

STRUCTURE
The wheel rotates around an axle and the axle is part of a spindle. To steer a front wheel, the spindle rotates about an axis, called the steering axis, that is nearly vertical. In the Tundra and Sequoia, the steering axis is an imaginary line through the centers of the upper and lower ball joints. The upper ball joint is at the outer end of the upper control arm and the lower ball joint is at the outer end of the lower control arm.

TOE
Look down at your feet and turn them inward so your toes are closer together than your heels -- this is called "toe-in.” Now make your toes further apart than your heels -- this is called "toe-out.”

In wheel alignment, "toe" is much the same. Positive toe (or toe-in) describes that the forward edges of the front wheels are closer together than the rearward edges when the wheels are viewed from above the vehicle. Similarly, negative toe (or toe-out) has the forward edges further apart than the rearward edges.

You will see two different measurements of toe -- "total" toe and "individual" toe. Suppose you draw a line (imaginary, of course) that is in the plane of the left wheel (or perpendicular to its axle) and parallel to the ground. This line sticks out in front of the vehicle and "points" where the left wheel "points.” Now draw a similar line for the right wheel. These two lines meet somewhere -- with positive toe (or toe-in), they meet way out in front of the vehicle. The angle between these lines is called "total toe.”

The vehicle manufacturers specify total toe with a very tight tolerance. It is extremely important to get total toe correct because your tires will "scrub" sideways a bit as you roll down the road if it is not. In fact, incorrect total toe is a BIG, BIG cause of premature tire wear.

Total toe is usually set positive a small amount for a rear-wheel-drive vehicle. In the case of the Tundra and Sequoia, the spec is +0.08 degrees.

Now let's add a third line down the middle of the vehicle, called the "geometric center line.” Again, the left wheel line meets this center line way out in front of the vehicle, and the angle between them is called "individual left toe.” Similarly, the right wheel line meets the center line and provides an angle called "individual right toe.” Not surprisingly, total toe is simply the sum of the two individual toes.

If you think about it, it will be obvious that the measurements of individual front toe depend on how the wheels are steered. The significance of individual front toe is that they have to be EQUAL WHEN THE STEERING WHEEL IS LEVEL or your steering wheel won't be level when you go straight down the road.

CAMBER
Camber can be described in two ways, which are equivalent to each other. It is the lean of the plane of the tire relative to vertical, the plane being perpendicular to the axle about which the wheel rotates. It is also the angle between the axle and the horizontal. Positive camber is a lean outward and negative caster is a lean inward.

Camber is usually set slightly positive. In the case of the Tundra and Sequoia, the spec is about +0.25 degrees.

With most wheel aligners, camber is measured relative to gravity, which is why the alignment is measured on an "alignment rack,” which is a lift rack with runways that are set flat and level.

CASTER
Now it gets fun. Remember the steering axis, about which the spindle rotates to steer the wheel left or right? Caster is the lean of this axis toward the rear, or it is the lean of the axis from the vertical when viewed from the side.

So, what is caster for? Picture the left wheel and its spindle. If caster is positive, meaning the steering axis is leaned toward the rear, then the left wheel tends to steer itself to the right when it rolls along. The more it is steered to the left, the harder it tries to steer to the right. A similar thing happens with the right wheel, which tries to steer itself to the left.

These two wheels try to steer themselves toward each other. If caster is the same on both wheels, then the forces will be equal when the vehicle is rolling straight ahead. If you steer to the left, the force steering the left wheel to the right is greater than the force steering the right wheel to the left, and so the steering wheel centers itself if you let go of it. The higher the caster is, the stronger the forces are and the harder the vehicle tries to steer itself straight ahead. This produces STEERING STABILITY.

If caster is reduced, the steering forces are reduced correspondingly. If caster is reduced enough, then the forces are too small and the steering system becomes unstable, meaning the wheels oscillate by steering left and right like a paint shaker.

So, how much is enough? It depends on LOTS of things and varies from vehicle to vehicle. On many Mercedes’, the caster spec is as high as ten 10°. On many pickups and such, it is commonly 3° to 4°. My Tundra can be "in spec,” according to Toyota, with caster at 0.5°, which is blisteringly stupid of them -- it is UNSTABLE.

The specs I have recommended put camber and toe at quite reasonable values and put caster right at the upper end of the range recommended by Toyota. In my opinion, caster should be even higher than that. I WON'T recommend setting it higher than that because of the liability involved, and because Toyota has NO grounds for complaint at my recommendation, but it's your truck and you can set it how you like.

ALIGNERS
Wheel alignment equipment manufactured by Hunter Engineering is "the standard" for alignment equipment all over the world. It is the best-selling alignment equipment in Japan. It is used for audit in nearly every vehicle assembly plant in North America and is used for this purpose in Toyota's plants, even in Japan.

So, yes, it is common for an alignment shop to have this equipment. You are likely to find it in at least 80% of the shops in the country, and it is commonly found in Toyota dealerships because it is recommended by Toyota to Toyota dealers.

Hunter has manufactured four different alignment consoles that have the "CAMM" screen, which makes it extremely easy and fast to set camber and caster on a vehicle with the suspension type found on the Tundra and Sequoia. These consoles are the models 211, 311, 411 and 611.

Excerpts from posts by DJ @ tundrasolutions.com
 
Sequoiasoon, thanks for the comments and advice. I knew much of that info about toe/camber etc. Even so, I WILL NOT be adding non stock camber plates and the like to this car, at this time, even if it will make the alignment perfect. Just not practical in this case.

Example why: BMW even states that weight should be added to account for passenger and have a full tank of fuel. NO ONE, not even the BMW dealer will do this locally. So it not logical that I can even find the expertise to have a performance suspension set up/alignment locally. If these is I may have them take a look anyway.
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Originally Posted By: Russell
Example why: BMW even states that weight should be added to account for passenger and have a full tank of fuel. NO ONE, not even the BMW dealer will do this locally.

I had an indy shop in Florida that would do this properly, as per BMW instructions. My local BMW dealers follow it, too.

Are you saying your local BMW dealer does not follow BMW instructions? Report them to BMW USA.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Russell
Example why: BMW even states that weight should be added to account for passenger and have a full tank of fuel. NO ONE, not even the BMW dealer will do this locally.

I had an indy shop in Florida that would do this properly, as per BMW instructions. My local BMW dealers follow it, too.

Are you saying your local BMW dealer does not follow BMW instructions? Report them to BMW USA.

Just called my local dealer. I was wrong as they will weight the car properly. However they said they can only set the toe and would charge $189.00.
 
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So even though BMW provides specific ranges for toe, caster, and camber for your car, this BMW dealer will only set the toe??? This is crazy.

Isn't there a reputable indy shop in your area that has a Hunter alignment machine (or some other high end machine) that can help you?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
So even though BMW provides specific ranges for toe, caster, and camber for your car, this BMW dealer will only set the toe??? This is crazy.

Isn't there a reputable indy shop in your area that has a Hunter alignment machine (or some other high end machine) that can help you?

As i previously said, The only adjustable item on the 1995 e34 suspension is the toe. Dealer cost is outlandsish for only the toe adjustment. I will get readings for everything else though!!!
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My last alignment, 63,000 miles ago, the last time I bought tires, was with a Hunter, full tank of gas and I sat in the car. I will be using a different shop for giggles this time and the cost is $69.00.
 
Sorry, I missed that before.

At least your indy shop has reasonable rates. Around here, to do it properly, indy shops charge as much as the dealer, so I just let the dealer do it.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Sorry, I missed that before.

At least your indy shop has reasonable rates. Around here, to do it properly, indy shops charge as much as the dealer, so I just let the dealer do it.

I went to my dealer for my Sequoia and gave them the specs I wanted (in the range as described) and told them I would not be satisfied if they didn't accomplish that. Went to pick it up and it was not done as requested. I told manager I wasn't paying for hit. His answer "it was in Toyota spec" my answer "so are the ones I gave you". He said those numbers were not attainable based on wear. I told him he and his tech are useless and need more training. I paid on AmEx and called right in front of him disputing the charge after he gave me keys.

I went to indy shop and they nailed it. Brought results back to dealers manager and sent complaints with copies of all to Toyota, dealer owner and BBB also told them local news was next to expose their fraudulent practice. I got full credit back, many apology letters and that manager no longer works there. I still don't go there for service anymore, parts yes, service no.
 
Some comments:

- Adjustability. There are a lot of ways to deal with the lack of built in adjustability - eccentric bolts, camber plates, and in the extreme, bending stuff or slotting holes. I don't recommend bending or slotting unless you know what you are doing.

- Specs. My standard answer is what I quoted - the specs are too wide by half - with only one exception I am aware of and that's BMW's toe spec It's already half of what everyone else publishes.
 
The wandering is probably not an alignment problem but a worn part problem, as was the rear suspension problem. The alignment tech must check for worn parts before he starts on adjusting the alignment. If parts are worn, stop and replace those parts. Then dial in the alignment.

I agree that alignment specs are too wide, and set within spec at one extreme on one side and the other extreme on the other side results in a terrible alignment.

My Tundra has the same front suspension as a Sequoia. I have great success with the toe-in and camber set at the center of the spec, and the caster at the maximum allowable spec. I will not allow it to be aligned just "within spec." It had a wandering problem one time--replacement of a worn bushing corrected that, then alignment to get everything right.

Are all three parameters adjustable? Well....maybe, and maybe the vehicle will have to be taken to a frame shop to get them correct. As Barry says, some require bending or other mods. Don't do that unless you have to.
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
The wandering is probably not an alignment problem but a worn part problem, as was the rear suspension problem. The alignment tech must check for worn parts before he starts on adjusting the alignment. If parts are worn, stop and replace those parts. Then dial in the alignment.

I agree that alignment specs are too wide, and set within spec at one extreme on one side and the other extreme on the other side results in a terrible alignment.

My Tundra has the same front suspension as a Sequoia. I have great success with the toe-in and camber set at the center of the spec, and the caster at the maximum allowable spec. I will not allow it to be aligned just "within spec." It had a wandering problem one time--replacement of a worn bushing corrected that, then alignment to get everything right.

Are all three parameters adjustable? Well....maybe, and maybe the vehicle will have to be taken to a frame shop to get them correct. As Barry says, some require bending or other mods. Don't do that unless you have to.

Just had the alignment completed this afternoon. No worn parts per tech. This is the third tech who says no worn parts. After almost 228,000 miles I would suspect there is something somewhere??

All front and rear caster and camber specs seemed fine except the toe. They could only set the toe. It was set out of spec apparently slightly toed out. Degrees left 0.06, right 0.03. It was reset to degrees left 0.14 and right 0.15. The spec range is degrees 0.11 to 0.19. I drove it about 25 miles on a two lane road. It might be a bit better.
 
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