I've been researching VOA and see that most lab analysis show a TBN largely based on Ca and other metallic additives. Most oils like PU and Amsoil Signature Series follow this trend with 3k of Ca with a lot of metallic compounds. Mobil 1 has been taking a different route ( I believe) and gone with non metallic compounds that do not show up in the VOA. Does anyone have any information on Mobil 1's EP and its chemical make up? Or any information that will explain how with a low TBN it is able to go the 15k miles... Thanks
metallic or non-metallic?
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It hasn't really been too impressive with TBN retention. I really don't think it is much better than the "regular" M1.
TBN depletion is not linear, so one really needs to do testing to see.
Its not linear but it follows a curve and the lower it starts the sooner it gets to any lower given value if all else is equal. I think Mobil is ripping people off with the EP oils. Wonder why their 0W-40 oil has a huge TBN? True long drain oil.
Not all TBN is equal. Some oils start out with a high TBN, but it depletes quickly. Other oils like Mobil 1 starts out with a lower TBN but will stand up much longer. That's why users of Mobil 1 oils often can go well over 10K OCIs and and still have plenty of protection. I remember Tom NJ explained this some time back. Not specificly about Mobil 1 , but about TBN retention in general. Also I have seen this with friends I have that do 15-20K OCIs and beyond with no problems at all.
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I was also skeptical about the low tbn and in all honestly non impressing VOA. I still think that something is in the Mobil 1 Extended Performance that we are not seeing. There was a used oil analysis of a Camaro running M1 for over 10k miles during the break in and the results were pretty excellent. Im not sure if it was the M1 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance.
The tricky part about TBN is that there are more then one way to test for it, and as you indicated, some detergent compounds do not show up on the testing. Also, how the detergent reacts with other additives in the system also plays into TBN retention. There have been several arguments one way or the other about how accurately a TBN measurement follows the ability of an oil to deal with acidic biproducts. In some cases, the detergent does not act on acids at all, leaving its base in tact when really the acidity is reaching dangerous levels.
AS Mobil does not disclose the TBN on it's pds - at least not on the one I found; it is difficult to say for certain that the low TBN reported by VOA is an accurate representation of it's ability to deal with acids. TBN retention is also equally affected by operating conditions, fuel dilution and other factors as much as it is additive formulation. This is why in some cases a high TBN oil will deplete faster than a lower TBN oil.
Detergents that produce low levels of sulphated ash are becoming much more popular (especially with oils used in diesel equipment); which in some cases are not showing up on testing the same way that Calcium and Magnesium based detergents do (which are the two most common detergent types).
AS Mobil does not disclose the TBN on it's pds - at least not on the one I found; it is difficult to say for certain that the low TBN reported by VOA is an accurate representation of it's ability to deal with acids. TBN retention is also equally affected by operating conditions, fuel dilution and other factors as much as it is additive formulation. This is why in some cases a high TBN oil will deplete faster than a lower TBN oil.
Detergents that produce low levels of sulphated ash are becoming much more popular (especially with oils used in diesel equipment); which in some cases are not showing up on testing the same way that Calcium and Magnesium based detergents do (which are the two most common detergent types).
Originally Posted By: Solarent
The tricky part about TBN is that there are more then one way to test for it, and as you indicated, some detergent compounds do not show up on the testing. Also, how the detergent reacts with other additives in the system also plays into TBN retention. There have been several arguments one way or the other about how accurately a TBN measurement follows the ability of an oil to deal with acidic biproducts. In some cases, the detergent does not act on acids at all, leaving its base in tact when really the acidity is reaching dangerous levels.
AS Mobil does not disclose the TBN on it's pds - at least not on the one I found; it is difficult to say for certain that the low TBN reported by VOA is an accurate representation of it's ability to deal with acids. TBN retention is also equally affected by operating conditions, fuel dilution and other factors as much as it is additive formulation. This is why in some cases a high TBN oil will deplete faster than a lower TBN oil.
Detergents that produce low levels of sulphated ash are becoming much more popular (especially with oils used in diesel equipment); which in some cases are not showing up on testing the same way that Calcium and Magnesium based detergents do (which are the two most common detergent types).
Thanks, those are good points. I did not know that.
For me it always goes back to meeting specifications. Knowing Mobil 1 Extended Performance meets ACEA-08, SN, GF-5, HTO-06, Dexos1, I'd feel confident the oil is pretty strong.
The tricky part about TBN is that there are more then one way to test for it, and as you indicated, some detergent compounds do not show up on the testing. Also, how the detergent reacts with other additives in the system also plays into TBN retention. There have been several arguments one way or the other about how accurately a TBN measurement follows the ability of an oil to deal with acidic biproducts. In some cases, the detergent does not act on acids at all, leaving its base in tact when really the acidity is reaching dangerous levels.
AS Mobil does not disclose the TBN on it's pds - at least not on the one I found; it is difficult to say for certain that the low TBN reported by VOA is an accurate representation of it's ability to deal with acids. TBN retention is also equally affected by operating conditions, fuel dilution and other factors as much as it is additive formulation. This is why in some cases a high TBN oil will deplete faster than a lower TBN oil.
Detergents that produce low levels of sulphated ash are becoming much more popular (especially with oils used in diesel equipment); which in some cases are not showing up on testing the same way that Calcium and Magnesium based detergents do (which are the two most common detergent types).
Thanks, those are good points. I did not know that.
For me it always goes back to meeting specifications. Knowing Mobil 1 Extended Performance meets ACEA-08, SN, GF-5, HTO-06, Dexos1, I'd feel confident the oil is pretty strong.
Originally Posted By: JAG
Its not linear but it follows a curve and the lower it starts the sooner it gets to any lower given value if all else is equal. I think Mobil is ripping people off with the EP oils. Wonder why their 0W-40 oil has a huge TBN? True long drain oil.
Do recall that Mobil 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed for "only" 15,000 miles. Many applications that specify Mobil 1 0w-40 have much longer OCIs than that.
Its not linear but it follows a curve and the lower it starts the sooner it gets to any lower given value if all else is equal. I think Mobil is ripping people off with the EP oils. Wonder why their 0W-40 oil has a huge TBN? True long drain oil.
Do recall that Mobil 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed for "only" 15,000 miles. Many applications that specify Mobil 1 0w-40 have much longer OCIs than that.
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