A few of you think that the medical costs for saving a life are too high. To that I say check the obits of your daily papers. I'm sure the folks described there would pay ANYTHING to be able to read the paper with you. You probably also complain about the cost of gas while drinking an 8 ounce $4.25 Starbuck's latte. I'm sure we've all had negative experiences at Dr's offices, hospitals, plasma centers, Taco Bell's, banks, and other establishments catering to the public. I've been there, too, both as a "customer" and employee. Since we seem to be repeating ourselves it is obvious that this subject has run its course. I will end my participation by saying that you have not seen how expensive medical care can be until it is "FREE." The politicians will "fix" things for you. Just get the KY ready for the result. You will wish the so-called "problems" of today would return.
Medevac Helicopters....
- Thread starter ryansride2017
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I'll close too. There still seems to be a fog. While some appear to justify and bolster the massive costs of such things, I ask "Why do they cost so much?". If life is so revered and cherished, why do so many exploit it in profits and gain? Where is their humanity? Where is their personal commitment to this noble cause? Surely, if you asked any civilized and sensible person if they would sacrifice something ..to save a life, they would say "Yes". Yet those who provide those services and technology appear to never line up to give.
That's someone else's job.
That's someone else's job.
JHZR2
Staff member
[
The problem is that we are mixing up an altruistic "for the good of man" type profession and related activities, with a for profit free market that has a monopoly. Given the price gouging that is apparent - they can do it if they like, but it doesnt make it apparent and commonly determined as a ripoff for "mandatory" services rendered - It is obvious that the hybridization is in no way good for the common person.
So strike out altruism all together. If one has the choice to do away with medical services lik this, fine, but extend it to the fact that not only if someone doesn't appreciate the pricing structure, but then also if someone for whatever reason cannot afford the pricing structure. After all, not being able to afford something is the ultimate in dislike of the prices charged. So, no free healthcare... you can either pay out of pocket, pay for insurance or die.
That really is the fair terms... if you don't like to pay what the charged rate is, then don't use it. If you cant pay the rate you dont like it, because you dont have the money, so dont use it. I don't believe in altruism, and don't give charity. If doctors are charging higher rates to pay for the costs of services rendered to uninsured and underinsured people, then they are forcing me to be altruistic, so that they arent forced to pay with their own time and effort for their efforts, though THEY are the people who chose a profession for the benefit of man.
Unfortunately altruism is necessary in humanity. We dont just let people 'not use' "it". We value life, and because we value life and our society will pay for the required services, we enable more of this price gouging.
Again, it is a hybrid scheme in an area that doesnt do well hybridized. Doctors arent as smart as people make them out to be. If anyone should be paid more, it is the engineers and biochemists that actually fundamentally understand how all of this stuff works... and guess what? They can't gouge anyone for excessive charges for services rendered, so they can't afford the yachts and third homes that doctors can, from scheming an altruistic system.
JMH
The problem is that we are mixing up an altruistic "for the good of man" type profession and related activities, with a for profit free market that has a monopoly. Given the price gouging that is apparent - they can do it if they like, but it doesnt make it apparent and commonly determined as a ripoff for "mandatory" services rendered - It is obvious that the hybridization is in no way good for the common person.
So strike out altruism all together. If one has the choice to do away with medical services lik this, fine, but extend it to the fact that not only if someone doesn't appreciate the pricing structure, but then also if someone for whatever reason cannot afford the pricing structure. After all, not being able to afford something is the ultimate in dislike of the prices charged. So, no free healthcare... you can either pay out of pocket, pay for insurance or die.
That really is the fair terms... if you don't like to pay what the charged rate is, then don't use it. If you cant pay the rate you dont like it, because you dont have the money, so dont use it. I don't believe in altruism, and don't give charity. If doctors are charging higher rates to pay for the costs of services rendered to uninsured and underinsured people, then they are forcing me to be altruistic, so that they arent forced to pay with their own time and effort for their efforts, though THEY are the people who chose a profession for the benefit of man.
Unfortunately altruism is necessary in humanity. We dont just let people 'not use' "it". We value life, and because we value life and our society will pay for the required services, we enable more of this price gouging.
Again, it is a hybrid scheme in an area that doesnt do well hybridized. Doctors arent as smart as people make them out to be. If anyone should be paid more, it is the engineers and biochemists that actually fundamentally understand how all of this stuff works... and guess what? They can't gouge anyone for excessive charges for services rendered, so they can't afford the yachts and third homes that doctors can, from scheming an altruistic system.
JMH
This is an opportunity for someone to start a business:
a 1-900 number that connects you to the cheapest air ambulance in your area.
a 1-900 number that connects you to the cheapest air ambulance in your area.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
Don't worry. If you yourself don't make a sacrifice, then there is no altruism involved.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web2/Costello.html
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Sorry ..missed this....
Now you're just being reflexively angry. My daughter was being transported not due to any "trauma" or "life threatening" condition. She was being transported due to our local hospital being geared to geriatrics and not pediatrics. The gouge was substantial. The personnel were the same whether she had O2 on her or not. They got the same hourly rate ..the ambulance cost the same to operate.
What you ignored is that the service abandoned collection when the relationship with the hospital (probably a scam the person was running) was threatened to be investigated. $1550 just evaporated into thin air.
All of those things are "allowed gouges" ..granted by whatever the sector "norm" is. It's kinda like a herd grazing. "Hey, Joe, they got the XXYYYZZZ oversight conference to establish an additional $300-500 for slapping an O2 mask on the patient!" "Good, now lets slap as many O2 masks on as we can!!"
This, again, all falls into the assumed "need" card being played. Any Fortune 500 company can have a wing thrown on a building ..have it detailed to the man hours that a hospital wing is ..redecorate to the equal hours spent on a hospital (or school) ..have it paid for and cheap in a short time ..yet the same square footage in a school or a hospital has got some magic multiplier to it that appears out of thin air. When a plant goes idle due to lack of demand ..the costs to the company goes down ..expenses recede. When they close down a burn unit due to no burn victims...they charge massive losses due to the empty beds in the facility. The price of maintaining it on "stand-by".
Remember those 9+ idle units that never leave the bays? Same thing.
Oddly enough, insurance is why we're in this situation. It's a game of economic semantics. You pay $0.60 on a dollar ...more $$ are going to be charged ..more procedures performed. The insurance companies basically are the privatized socialized funding arm of the medical community. While everyone whines about rising insurance costs, this would not occur if physicians and facilities didn't have such assured sources of revenue for their works. It would be truly indexed to the financial health of the society and not make unrealistic gains in terms of % of the GDP. If $7-9 hour people were in abundance (which they are) ...the system will learn to live on $7-9 hour yields. Everyone else adjusts to these market/social changes ..and I'm really struggling to figure out why the contour of costs doesn't apply to this sector.
Now you're just being reflexively angry. My daughter was being transported not due to any "trauma" or "life threatening" condition. She was being transported due to our local hospital being geared to geriatrics and not pediatrics. The gouge was substantial. The personnel were the same whether she had O2 on her or not. They got the same hourly rate ..the ambulance cost the same to operate.
What you ignored is that the service abandoned collection when the relationship with the hospital (probably a scam the person was running) was threatened to be investigated. $1550 just evaporated into thin air.
All of those things are "allowed gouges" ..granted by whatever the sector "norm" is. It's kinda like a herd grazing. "Hey, Joe, they got the XXYYYZZZ oversight conference to establish an additional $300-500 for slapping an O2 mask on the patient!" "Good, now lets slap as many O2 masks on as we can!!"
This, again, all falls into the assumed "need" card being played. Any Fortune 500 company can have a wing thrown on a building ..have it detailed to the man hours that a hospital wing is ..redecorate to the equal hours spent on a hospital (or school) ..have it paid for and cheap in a short time ..yet the same square footage in a school or a hospital has got some magic multiplier to it that appears out of thin air. When a plant goes idle due to lack of demand ..the costs to the company goes down ..expenses recede. When they close down a burn unit due to no burn victims...they charge massive losses due to the empty beds in the facility. The price of maintaining it on "stand-by".
Remember those 9+ idle units that never leave the bays? Same thing.
Oddly enough, insurance is why we're in this situation. It's a game of economic semantics. You pay $0.60 on a dollar ...more $$ are going to be charged ..more procedures performed. The insurance companies basically are the privatized socialized funding arm of the medical community. While everyone whines about rising insurance costs, this would not occur if physicians and facilities didn't have such assured sources of revenue for their works. It would be truly indexed to the financial health of the society and not make unrealistic gains in terms of % of the GDP. If $7-9 hour people were in abundance (which they are) ...the system will learn to live on $7-9 hour yields. Everyone else adjusts to these market/social changes ..and I'm really struggling to figure out why the contour of costs doesn't apply to this sector.
I don't think anyone is saying that it isn't an essential service at times. But the field and the boardroom are two different things, and it is always worth questioning where the money is actually going. If the profit margins are reasonable, the operation is efficient, and the services are used based on necessity, then there's no problem!
Many people die or are seriously injured in the process of creating and sustaining our wealth, including many helicopter crews. It's also possible that the same amount of money necessary to save one person may be better used to save many people. So I don't believe that saving a life is always worth "whatever it costs". But, again, I'm not arguing that these helicopters do not provide a valuable service. The costs mentioned here are not prohibitive, they're just high enough that one might wonder if they reflect the actual cost of the operation.
JHZR2
Staff member
AAAH, but when I pay my premiums to my medical insurance, and then the physicians charge them/me a substantially larger amount than the value for services rendered... Im paying for it.
The doctors charge the paying public (or really their insurance companies usually) an extra amount for their services to (a) bump their earnings because they can and/or (b) to pay for the uninsured/underinsured that they treat and done make money on. If Im paying an insurance premium, and the money that I spend and receive no value from goes to other paying insured(s), who also pay their premium to the same plan, then fine. That is the point of the insurance setup - you pay in and the fees go to the servics used by sicklier folks, until its your turn to need a big procedure, at which point all their unused funds essentially apy for what you dont. Rough but generally accurate for how insurance works. And that is all well and good, and in the interest of keeping charges to the customers down, insurance companies only pay so much.
Now consider the case above where the person and their insurance was billed $120k for 12 hours of service, and the insurance paid only $22k. Obviously the person providing service charged that for one of two reasons - becasue if they got it, theyd make a killing, or because they they suck as much out of everyone they can to make sure that anyone that cant pay and whom they 'fix' is paid for.
I'm not the one who took the hippocratic oath. Im not the doctor. Im paying for services rendered to ME, and for services rendered to others in my insurance policy, so that same is paid for me when my time comes. Im not paying for the doctor's other time, for their 'charitable' time that they spend serving uninsured or underinsured people, nor am I paying extra money to ensure that the doctor's third house by the shore and boat are all paid for.
Unfortunately, this is what happens when the doctors overcharge. They are making more than a generally skilled practitioner with an advanced degree is worth. Most all of them have no real, useful novel or value added, they are providing commodity services - so why do they charge an excessive premium?
I am aware of how it works... Doctors and other health practitioners charge one rate to uninsured and cash patients, another rate to the insurance company. Ive asked them how much they actually get paid by the insurance companies, and the amounts come to 2-3x what they actually bill their cash patients.
In the end all, they wont be in business if theyre making under a certain amount of money. OK, that is fine if it is reasonable, given the value provided. But guess how they ensure that they make the right amount, when they have cash and non-insured patients, some of whom they dont even charge??? Well, thats why they over charge the insured folks.
That forces me to be altruistic by virtue of my insurance premiums and use of the system.
Im willing to make donations to entities worth my money. A doctor is not one of them. Therein lies the problem. Where else is there an entity who is there for the good of man, that doesnt actually take an actual sacrifice for this behavior, by virtue of charging more to others??
JMH
Two years ago I helped a guy(a Dentist) that had an engine fire on his boat, I was first on the scene, I had had some training through the Canadian Power Squadron, and the fire was soon under control (he had waisted his extinguisher) His wife and Kid came aboard my boat while we were fighting the fire.
When the fire was out I towed him back to the Harbour.
My Boat cost quite a few $, I also paid for my Power Squadron training, I did not plan to spend the day and burn gas saving him or his boat! I didn't want to Gouge him, but perhaps I should have asked what his Boat/Family/Life is worth, agree on a price or suggest he might rather wait for search and rescue.
When the fire was out I towed him back to the Harbour.
My Boat cost quite a few $, I also paid for my Power Squadron training, I did not plan to spend the day and burn gas saving him or his boat! I didn't want to Gouge him, but perhaps I should have asked what his Boat/Family/Life is worth, agree on a price or suggest he might rather wait for search and rescue.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
Altruism isn't about money, but it is a concept going way above and beyond mammon. It is the "unselfish concern for the welfare of others." You simply used the wrong word, that's all. You can't use the term altruism, because the desire to hold on to your money is inherently selfish, which is the OPPOSITE of being altruistic (Hey, I'm not judging, just stating a fact).
You should use a better suited expression for what's bothering you. Maybe "forced charity"?
JHZR2
Staff member
Gotcha... thanks for the clarification!!!!
best,
JMH
best,
JMH
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Quote:
Altruism isn't about money, but it is a concept going way above and beyond mammon. It is the "unselfish concern for the welfare of others." You simply used the wrong word, that's all. You can't use the term altruism, because the desire to hold on to your money is inherently selfish, which is the OPPOSITE of being altruistic (Hey, I'm not judging, just stating a fact).
You should use a better suited expression for what's bothering you. Maybe "forced charity"?
Yes, he's an unwilling benefactor via proxy in funding those who pretend to be altruistic.
The notion (for those who pretend) is very much like a Baron Von Munchausen syndrome (but not with "via proxy" suffix)
sounds like your describing the car insurance industry as well. Our car premiums get raised due to lawsuits and uninsured people driving cars. Everyone is jumping on the doctor, the hospital charges huge fees too. $5k/night for a patient to sleep in a bed on the hospital floor. With the ER, you always need several nurses etc on staff if a real emergency comes. They do have their downtimes. On the floor it is much different, if there is a low patient census, they will send nurses home or call to tell them not to come in.
Alright, explain this one to me please.
(off topic).
I asked my car insurance if they would give me a discount if I signed an oath to abstain from alcohol. They said no. So I cancelled my collision coverage, and am no longer subsidizing those people who drink and drive.
I asked my car insurance if they would give me a discount if I signed an oath to abstain from alcohol. They said no. So I cancelled my collision coverage, and am no longer subsidizing those people who drink and drive.
JHZR2
Staff member
Car insurance is 10X worse. Medical insurance generally has a base rate chared to all insureds, unless, I suppose, they are REALLY sickly.
Auto insurance is the one entity out there where it is perfectly fine, legal and accepted to discriminate based upon gender, age, job, education, where you live, how much you make, etc. Then, you hold onto their services to protect yourself, and should you ever actually have to use them, you get charged more.
And should there ever be a discrepancy there, the SOP is to go to court and throw the lawyer's monopoly at you, until you bleed enough to concede to their terms.
Talk about a ridiculous industry.
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
Did above, please read my rants
JMH
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
You have two customers. Peter and Paul. Paul is poor and can't pay for your services. You perform them anyway. When Peter comes in, you charge him for Paul's received services ...robbing him. Meanwhile you improve your facility to the highest standards, charge even more for them ...which you give to Paul too ...but charge Peter for.
You don't lose a dime.
Medical procedures are billed in funny money ..but paid in real $$. Although a managed care concern/entity may negotiate some lower rate for services, the costs still eventually refilter up in the final package.
Now just add more Pauls to the equation and you can see why Peter may be a bit annoyed at the body mechanic for being so generous with HIS money.
I'm sure that there's a flip side to the coin ...but that will end up trying to justify charging $12.95 for two aspirin which is hard for most rational people to accept
Okay, maybe I can shed some light on the situation. I didn't read every post, but I do think that the cost in question was excessive. I am a firefighter/paramedic in northwest PA. The costs here should be similar to the original area in question.
An accident happens. An ambulance responds and probably a fire / rescue vehicle. The ambulance will bill for their services and the fire department CAN bill for their service. Then they determine that the patient needs to be air lifted to a truama center. The helicopter is called. The cost for this SHOULD be anywhere from $5000 - $10,000. Then the helicopter lands at the trauma center, but there may not be a place to land that is near the ER. I know this sounds stupid, but it is very common around here. They need to call an ambulance to get the patient to the ER. Now, the helicopter comapny may have a contract with this ambulance, but somebody has to pay for the ambulance and the cost is probably around $400 or more. Now the patient has 4 bills and hasn't even seen a doctor yet.
Now, to the fraud issue. It MAY be true for the service in question. I work for a municipality, so we don't try to push people to go to the hospital when they don't need to. There is another area ambulance (privatly owned) that pushes people to go to the hospital just so they can get $$$ from them and their insurance company. This ambulance service bills at a significantly higher rate for car accidents (I know this first hand) becuase the automobil insurance companies usually pay 100% of the bill without questioning it. While the average ambulance ride may cost $600, a car accident with a minor injury will cost $2,600. Yes this is fraud, but they get away with it every day.
Now, think of this from the company's side. I work for a city. If we lose money, the taxpayers pick up the bill with their taxes. If the private ambulance service loses money, he goes out of business. So, in the end, you end up paying for it one way or another. Either your taxes go up or your insurance rates go up. You only need to decide who's hand you want reaching into your pocket.
FWIW, I do not and will never consider a patients ability to pay the bill when I call for a medevac helecopter. I service a very rural area and our nearest trauma center is 90 miles away. Many times, I call for a helicopter before I arrive on scene because they are also at least 25 minutes away. I think nothing of cancelling them when I decide they aren't needed. Take into cosideration the cost of these multiple flights which see absolutly no income.
An accident happens. An ambulance responds and probably a fire / rescue vehicle. The ambulance will bill for their services and the fire department CAN bill for their service. Then they determine that the patient needs to be air lifted to a truama center. The helicopter is called. The cost for this SHOULD be anywhere from $5000 - $10,000. Then the helicopter lands at the trauma center, but there may not be a place to land that is near the ER. I know this sounds stupid, but it is very common around here. They need to call an ambulance to get the patient to the ER. Now, the helicopter comapny may have a contract with this ambulance, but somebody has to pay for the ambulance and the cost is probably around $400 or more. Now the patient has 4 bills and hasn't even seen a doctor yet.
Now, to the fraud issue. It MAY be true for the service in question. I work for a municipality, so we don't try to push people to go to the hospital when they don't need to. There is another area ambulance (privatly owned) that pushes people to go to the hospital just so they can get $$$ from them and their insurance company. This ambulance service bills at a significantly higher rate for car accidents (I know this first hand) becuase the automobil insurance companies usually pay 100% of the bill without questioning it. While the average ambulance ride may cost $600, a car accident with a minor injury will cost $2,600. Yes this is fraud, but they get away with it every day.
Now, think of this from the company's side. I work for a city. If we lose money, the taxpayers pick up the bill with their taxes. If the private ambulance service loses money, he goes out of business. So, in the end, you end up paying for it one way or another. Either your taxes go up or your insurance rates go up. You only need to decide who's hand you want reaching into your pocket.
FWIW, I do not and will never consider a patients ability to pay the bill when I call for a medevac helecopter. I service a very rural area and our nearest trauma center is 90 miles away. Many times, I call for a helicopter before I arrive on scene because they are also at least 25 minutes away. I think nothing of cancelling them when I decide they aren't needed. Take into cosideration the cost of these multiple flights which see absolutly no income.
- Status
Similar threads
