have become the latest method of insurance "fraud" in my humble opinion. 10-15 years ago only "critical" patients were flown because they needed immediate medical care that local hospitals apparently could not provide. A family member recently had a helicopter ride to the hospital and the total cost was $91,000 for a 30 to 40 mile ride. Another local guy had a crash and was airlifted to hospital and was admitted in SATISFACTORY condition. Just another reason all of our health care costs continue to go through the roof.
Medevac Helicopters....
- Thread starter ryansride2017
- Start date
- Status
Here, we had a hospital wasn't the best, but was fairly decent.
we lived about 200m from their helipad (next to a kids playground for context), and saw 2 to 3 airlifts per month.
We got a new multi-million hospital, out where it's not so high profile.
A burst appendix now needs an airlift.
They do 6 or 7 flights per weekend, and 3 every 5 days for the rest.
Each flight is $15k to $17k.
The private charity flight service lost out to a Canadian do and charge earlier this year, when the charity was offering a zero net cost, while the winners offered not only costs, but lead times.
Yep...flying sick people looks good, but is hideously costly compared to beds and doctors.
we lived about 200m from their helipad (next to a kids playground for context), and saw 2 to 3 airlifts per month.
We got a new multi-million hospital, out where it's not so high profile.
A burst appendix now needs an airlift.
They do 6 or 7 flights per weekend, and 3 every 5 days for the rest.
Each flight is $15k to $17k.
The private charity flight service lost out to a Canadian do and charge earlier this year, when the charity was offering a zero net cost, while the winners offered not only costs, but lead times.
Yep...flying sick people looks good, but is hideously costly compared to beds and doctors.
Lets see how many millions of dollars does one of these helicopters cost?, Oh about $10-12 million. Now add in the pilots who work on standby, medical personnel who ride with patient also on standby, insurance, fuel, required FAA maintenance. Plus add in return on investment.
Yep, it's a matter of prestige. A hospital with a helicopter is going to have more business than the one without one due to the perception of the potential patients. The patients also like to be transferred quickly so that plays a role, too. It's a free market economic system - supply meets the demand.
Otherwise you are welcome to switch to socialism - the Cuban health care system is far more efficient and effective as far as I know.
Otherwise you are welcome to switch to socialism - the Cuban health care system is far more efficient and effective as far as I know.
JHZR2
Staff member
Its not a socialist vs. capitalist issue in the medical field. Not only are doctors given TONS of free stuff as an nducement to sell one manufacturer's wares, prescriptions, etc., over another, but they over prescribe ALL THE TIME, and generally arent all as smart as people make doctors out to be, unfortunately.
Further, when someone has essentially 'free' healthcare, by virtue of their health insurance, they desire to have the absolute best possible. They dont question this shot vs. that shot, nor do they often question this procedure vs. that procedure. They generically want the best to make them well again.
If getting from one place to another ASAP is generically what is best, and someone else is effectively paying for it, hey, why not?
It is merely peoples' stupidity, coupled with the credit card effect - I dont see the cash moving from my pocket, so I can pay for something I cant afford without thinking twice.
People really aren't so bright, and we give most folks more credit than they deserve, unfortunately.
OK, in this society, if we can pay for it, we are free to waste it... That's fine, but most people really can't pay for it, though they think they can, and even if they can, this entality will come back to severely bite us one of these days, whether it is from people living excessively in debt, insurance, fuel, housing, etc.
JMH
Further, when someone has essentially 'free' healthcare, by virtue of their health insurance, they desire to have the absolute best possible. They dont question this shot vs. that shot, nor do they often question this procedure vs. that procedure. They generically want the best to make them well again.
If getting from one place to another ASAP is generically what is best, and someone else is effectively paying for it, hey, why not?
It is merely peoples' stupidity, coupled with the credit card effect - I dont see the cash moving from my pocket, so I can pay for something I cant afford without thinking twice.
People really aren't so bright, and we give most folks more credit than they deserve, unfortunately.
OK, in this society, if we can pay for it, we are free to waste it... That's fine, but most people really can't pay for it, though they think they can, and even if they can, this entality will come back to severely bite us one of these days, whether it is from people living excessively in debt, insurance, fuel, housing, etc.
JMH
There is no doubt to the importance of medical helicopters. More and more the decision to be transported in a helicopter is not made by the patients (naturally some are unconscious or incoherent) or patients families but by EMT's, fire captains and even some police officers that cannot correctly diagnose a patient. Not only that, but I know in my area the emergency workers get a thrill out of seeing a helicopter land and put no thought into what it costs. No offense to the properly trained EMT's and emergency personnel that can properly diagnose injuries.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I think most of the use you see is to keep them viable. There are very few instances where they're used in any matter that saves time. Typically, by the time you assemble the flight team ...etc..etc... ground transport would beat them to the hospital by about an hour. Sure the time span between the scene (or other hospital's landing pad) and the final treatment location is short ...the patient typically isn't in any life threatening situation. They don't transport an unstable patient. If the patient becomes unstable in the air ...they're looking for a landing spot.
That is, all/most of the transports you see are to fund the service. My father was a burn victim (he died from the resultant infection). He was stable and ready for transport in a mobile intensive care unit (which most ambulances are). They took about 3-4 hours to do the helicopter deal (between him entering the ER and him reaching the burn unit. He could have been there in less than 45 minutes via ground transport. It took about 45 minutes from when they landed until they took off.
That is, all/most of the transports you see are to fund the service. My father was a burn victim (he died from the resultant infection). He was stable and ready for transport in a mobile intensive care unit (which most ambulances are). They took about 3-4 hours to do the helicopter deal (between him entering the ER and him reaching the burn unit. He could have been there in less than 45 minutes via ground transport. It took about 45 minutes from when they landed until they took off.
My friend has several nice choppers and a delux pad. He leases use to a medical transport, w/ and even nicer chopper (can barely hear the thing!) They go out 3-4 times a week in my rural area, some major hwys here tho. Anyway, yes, it's expensive as witnessed by the woman who attacked my wife through her car window and was dragged down the road...probally she did not need the helio, but did not need the $50k bill either. Biatch.
Gary, sorry to hear about that. I agree the whole process is not time-effective.
"the Cuban health care system is far more efficient and effective as far as I know."
Yea, right. That's why Castro brought in a doctor from SPAIN to handle his most recent problem. Efficiency of Cuba's system is GREATLY overstated.
Medivac helicopter flying is one of the most hazardous types of flying. I flew helis, and managed helicopter flight operations, for over 25 years. If your family member had to fly 40 minutes in a heli to get medical care he was a L O N G way from quality care. You have a choice: Pay $91K or DIE, or suffer permanent disability because of inadequate or untimely medical care. personally, I'd go for the ride and let my insurance company take care of the bill. People who have no insurance, or inadequate insurance, have nothing to worry about. Can't get blood from a turnip. Those of us who have insurance underwrite those who don't, that's one reason why cost is so high.
"It took about 45 minutes from when they landed until they took off." It most likely took this time to stabilize the patient for transport. Usually there's a highly qualified flight NURSE on board, in addition to EMTs. Some pretty spectacular medical care takes place on the aircraft. Equal to emergency room care, so the time wasn't wasted. To take that long to stabililize the patient indicates he must have been in pretty bad shape. sorry for your loss.
Yea, right. That's why Castro brought in a doctor from SPAIN to handle his most recent problem. Efficiency of Cuba's system is GREATLY overstated.
Medivac helicopter flying is one of the most hazardous types of flying. I flew helis, and managed helicopter flight operations, for over 25 years. If your family member had to fly 40 minutes in a heli to get medical care he was a L O N G way from quality care. You have a choice: Pay $91K or DIE, or suffer permanent disability because of inadequate or untimely medical care. personally, I'd go for the ride and let my insurance company take care of the bill. People who have no insurance, or inadequate insurance, have nothing to worry about. Can't get blood from a turnip. Those of us who have insurance underwrite those who don't, that's one reason why cost is so high.
"It took about 45 minutes from when they landed until they took off." It most likely took this time to stabilize the patient for transport. Usually there's a highly qualified flight NURSE on board, in addition to EMTs. Some pretty spectacular medical care takes place on the aircraft. Equal to emergency room care, so the time wasn't wasted. To take that long to stabililize the patient indicates he must have been in pretty bad shape. sorry for your loss.
Cost aprox $1500 to get a snowmobile lifted off the mountain in much less than ideal flying conditions and geography than any airbulance ride.
It's a racket, like my bud with an auto glass company says "if you want to make money you need to be in the business of billing the government or insurance companies"
It's a racket, like my bud with an auto glass company says "if you want to make money you need to be in the business of billing the government or insurance companies"
Well, here's my 2 cents.
First off, I've been a firefighter/paramedic for 15 years. I've worked in very rural areas as well as metro area. I've flown a BUNCH of people out on helicopters.
I'd say 95% of those I've flown out were either 100% critical or "on the way out the door". The other 5% were stable, but had injuries that needed to be treated by a major hospital quickly, or fell into the catagory that the mechanism could cause some injuries not visible, or to cover myself. The last statement reverts back to the time that people sue at the drop of a hat. A paramedic is no more protected than an ER physician.
I've also had a family member flown by a chopper. Last summer my mother-in-law was shot. She was flown to the closest trauma center (20-30 minutes by air, 60-75 minutes by ground). She passed away within a week, but would not have lasted that long at the local "band-aid station" or most likely would not have survived the ground trip.
Everyone has their gripes...but sometimes they don't really know the basis for everything that surrounds why something happens, or just plain don't know what they are talking about.
"It's a racket"
Obviously the person who wrote this statement doesn't know what he's talking about. All the helicopter does is save TIME, nothing more. When you're dying you don't have time to waste. I hope that the person who wrote that statement never needs emergency care. Just remember, however, that when you're in a car you only control 1/2 of your life. The idiot who's going to hit you controls the other. Thank #@$%! there are folks who risk their lives in helicopters to save others in need. Many folks are still around today because of them. I only hope that this person NEVER needs rapid transport to a hospital because I think he will eat his words BIG TIME!!
Obviously the person who wrote this statement doesn't know what he's talking about. All the helicopter does is save TIME, nothing more. When you're dying you don't have time to waste. I hope that the person who wrote that statement never needs emergency care. Just remember, however, that when you're in a car you only control 1/2 of your life. The idiot who's going to hit you controls the other. Thank #@$%! there are folks who risk their lives in helicopters to save others in need. Many folks are still around today because of them. I only hope that this person NEVER needs rapid transport to a hospital because I think he will eat his words BIG TIME!!
rotarray,
in the case of my town, the Govt got away with the capital and operating expenses of a decent hospital by the continuous flying of people to hospitals in Sydney 120km away.
It's needlessly expensive (10 flights per week, rather than 1 per fortnight ain't cheap), and actually keeps people further away from the emergency care that used to be available.
When the helicopter pulls up at a traffic accident, mining accident, motorcross track etc., then I agree that they are very worthwhile and necessary.
in the case of my town, the Govt got away with the capital and operating expenses of a decent hospital by the continuous flying of people to hospitals in Sydney 120km away.
It's needlessly expensive (10 flights per week, rather than 1 per fortnight ain't cheap), and actually keeps people further away from the emergency care that used to be available.
When the helicopter pulls up at a traffic accident, mining accident, motorcross track etc., then I agree that they are very worthwhile and necessary.
A great asset with beyond outrageous pricing.
IMHO part of it has to do with usage in rural areas. nobody could justify a whirlybird that sits around for weeks in between flying. A "use it or lose it" idea. 50 years ago only large towns/cities hospitals. now they are alot more prevelent.
They are an amazing asset. I know 3 people that are alive or still have all of their limbs because of medivac. would anyone want to take the bet of $50,000 or your loved ones life? well they might make it by ambulance and save you some $$$$$ but they might not.
They are an amazing asset. I know 3 people that are alive or still have all of their limbs because of medivac. would anyone want to take the bet of $50,000 or your loved ones life? well they might make it by ambulance and save you some $$$$$ but they might not.
"Obviously the person who wrote this statement doesn't know what he's talking about."
So you think billing $91,000 for a $10,000 (at most) service and hoping for some insurance company to pay for it is good ethical business?
Two people close to me have "taken the ride", and yes it's a great life saver. In one case the widow of the passenger had little to no money, so in the end the hospital and emergency services made huge bill adjustments to "actual costs". The $750,000 bill was reduced to about $60,000. Wish my business could get away with mark-up like that, and have zealots on the internet defending it.
So you think billing $91,000 for a $10,000 (at most) service and hoping for some insurance company to pay for it is good ethical business?
Two people close to me have "taken the ride", and yes it's a great life saver. In one case the widow of the passenger had little to no money, so in the end the hospital and emergency services made huge bill adjustments to "actual costs". The $750,000 bill was reduced to about $60,000. Wish my business could get away with mark-up like that, and have zealots on the internet defending it.
WileyE,
If you think it's a "racket" the next time you are seriously injured or ill and require "expedited" emergency transport you should REFUSE all such transport. Just have the officer who responds to your emergency have his dispatcher call a taxi for you. By the by, if you do that he will probably either have you sign a liability release so your heirs won't sue him for negligence, or he will temporarily commit you as a psychiatric case and send you in a heli anyway, because you'd be nuts to refuse it if it was needed. A "racket" is having to pay $200 to take your kid to a professional baseball game and having a beer and a hotdog because some players are making well over $100-grand a game, or each time at bat. That's a racket!
Also, I'm not a "zealot." I just think that when it comes to saving a life we should save the life FIRST and worry about the expense later. When you or a family member is dying from a heart attack, serious illness, or at the scene of an auto accident you don't have the option of getting 3 estimates prior to making a choice. You're not getting your car repaired. You go with what you have at that moment and be THANKFUL that you can fight about the money later.
If you think it's a "racket" the next time you are seriously injured or ill and require "expedited" emergency transport you should REFUSE all such transport. Just have the officer who responds to your emergency have his dispatcher call a taxi for you. By the by, if you do that he will probably either have you sign a liability release so your heirs won't sue him for negligence, or he will temporarily commit you as a psychiatric case and send you in a heli anyway, because you'd be nuts to refuse it if it was needed. A "racket" is having to pay $200 to take your kid to a professional baseball game and having a beer and a hotdog because some players are making well over $100-grand a game, or each time at bat. That's a racket!
Also, I'm not a "zealot." I just think that when it comes to saving a life we should save the life FIRST and worry about the expense later. When you or a family member is dying from a heart attack, serious illness, or at the scene of an auto accident you don't have the option of getting 3 estimates prior to making a choice. You're not getting your car repaired. You go with what you have at that moment and be THANKFUL that you can fight about the money later.
WileyE (me) admits "racket" was a poor choice of words. Sorry if it rubbed anyone the wrong way. The question of the service and it's importance was never in question for me, it was the cost, mostly in light of what we paid for helecoptor extractions off the mountain.
The issue does not seem to be the service itself, but the inflated cost of the service.
WileE's example is perfect. A $750,000 bill that only cost the hospital $60,000. 1250% markup!
That's an awful lot of Gravy.
rotorray - I don't understand why you take issue with those of us who think the cost is entirely unreasonable. It is unreasonable to just accept the service and worry about the cost later. At what point would you worry about the cost? $200K? 1 Million? At what point does it become gouging?
The costs of our goods and services, Especially the necesary, life critical ones, is a legitimate concern. I know it is to me, especially if it could cost a family their house. Sorry mam, we got your husband to the hospital as fast as we could but it was no use. By the way, there is a lean on your house because of the helicopter transport.
How much of the bill is the actual (legitimate) expense, and how much is gravy? That's my question.
WileE's example is perfect. A $750,000 bill that only cost the hospital $60,000. 1250% markup!
That's an awful lot of Gravy.
rotorray - I don't understand why you take issue with those of us who think the cost is entirely unreasonable. It is unreasonable to just accept the service and worry about the cost later. At what point would you worry about the cost? $200K? 1 Million? At what point does it become gouging?
The costs of our goods and services, Especially the necesary, life critical ones, is a legitimate concern. I know it is to me, especially if it could cost a family their house. Sorry mam, we got your husband to the hospital as fast as we could but it was no use. By the way, there is a lean on your house because of the helicopter transport.
How much of the bill is the actual (legitimate) expense, and how much is gravy? That's my question.
- Status
Similar threads
