MB229.5 and MB229.51

[930.engineering]

On a T-GDI I would consider running Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-30 (ACEA C3, VW 504.00 & 507.00, Porsche C30) or Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 (ACEA C2 & C3, API SN, VW 504.00 &507.00, MB 229.51 & 229.52), if you have access to them in Australia. They both seem to be exactly the same stuff, at least the corresponding datasheets and VOAs do suggest this.

 

[kschachn]

Kia 1.6 T-GDI.
Very satisfied with SHU 5w30 API SN-plus A3/B4.
However was thinking if API SP/GF6 / D1g2 are good standards, then the reduced viscosity would be a bonus.

Why is that?

 

[2EHA]

Kia 1.6 T-GDI.
Very satisfied with SHU 5w30 API SN-plus A3/B4.
However was thinking if API SP/GF6 / D1g2 are good standards, then the reduced viscosity would be a bonus.

use a C3 oil if your concern is valve deposit related and you want to maintain OCI

a5/gf6 oil if economy is your concern

 

[yowps3]

Why is that?

If the same or similar performance parameters of higher viscosity can be obtained utilizing lower viscosity. The enhanced cold start wear protection, reduced fuel consumption and pumping losses of low viscosity are certainly desirable traits.

 

[Jetronic]

there's no enhanced cold start wear protection if the winter rating is the same, and probably no enhanced protection otherwise either unless you use an inappropriate winter rating.

Reduced fuel consumption is real, but lost in the noise. In fact if you drive with low rpm to save fuel, your gains might even be less. Wear rates do go up though, specifically piston rings and other parts that are not hydrodynamically lubricated. Not a concern if you change vehicles somewhat regularly, but could be if you run them till they just won't anymore.

 

[930.engineering]

When HTHS is the same there's likely no difference in wear. When there's plenty of boron in it it's likely even less wear. Provided appropriate OCIs and similar approvals. Admitted, it should make no perceptible difference for use in Australia whether you run 0W or 5W.

 

[kschachn]

If the same or similar performance parameters of higher viscosity can be obtained utilizing lower viscosity. The enhanced cold start wear protection, reduced fuel consumption and pumping losses of low viscosity are certainly desirable traits.

"Cold start wear protection" is a myth at least as is often discussed on here, cold start pumpability is what the winter rating designates. There is always more than sufficient MOFT from any oil at cold start. What you need to protect is the ability to pump the oil.

Even then nearly any winter rated oil will pump at most temperatures. Only when you're getting below 0F or further do you really need to worry about that.

 

[yowps3]

"Cold start wear protection" is a myth at least as is often discussed on here, cold start pumpability is what the winter rating designates. There is always more than sufficient MOFT from any oil at cold start. What you need to protect is the ability to pump the oil.

Even then nearly any winter rated oil will pump at most temperatures. Only when you're getting below 0F or further do you really need to worry about that.

Here's a good experiment. Take two plastic bottles, in one bottle pour a 0w20 and the other bottle pour a 5w30.
You'll notice the 0w20 posesses clearly superior flow characteristics at all temperatures.

 

[kschachn]

Here's a good experiment. Take two plastic bottles, in one bottle pour a 0w20 and the other bottle pour a 5w30.
You'll notice the 0w20 posesses clearly superior flow characteristics at all temperatures.

Okay. And that means what?

 

[Jetronic]

it'll flow faster back to the sump after going through the engine during a cold start, i suppose.

 

[yowps3]

Okay. And that means what?

Everything is a compromise, relatively speaking. For every action there's a reaction.
For a daily driven, non heavy duty subjected vehicle the lower viscosity oil enables faster flow, reduced oil temperature, quicker warm up, increased engine power and reduced fuel consumption.
Low viscosity oils don't seems to have much support on BITOG.
And let's face it, 0w20 isn't exactly on the cutting edge of low viscosity anymore.

 

[d00df00d]

Oil viscosity
Tire width
Ground clearance
Overall vehicle size

As much as necessary, as little as possible.

 

[kschachn]

Everything is a compromise, relatively speaking. For every action there's a reaction.
For a daily driven, non heavy duty subjected vehicle the lower viscosity oil enables faster flow, reduced oil temperature, quicker warm up, increased engine power and reduced fuel consumption.
Low viscosity oils don't seems to have much support on BITOG.
And let's face it, 0w20 isn't exactly on the cutting edge of low viscosity anymore.

Some of that is partially true but "flow" in an ICE is relatively irrelevant, the only flow that is really important is the ability of the oil pump to pump oil. That's what a revision to SAE J300 addressed and is reflected in a change to how the winter rating of the oil is obtained. As long as the oil does not gel under shear in the vicinity of the pump pickup then it will pump and it will flow. "Faster flow" applies to those goofy YouTube videos that show faster flow down a ramp or out of a bottle and this isn't relevant to ICE operation.

Also, heavier oils warm up faster than thinner ones so if that is your goal you should be using a higher grade, not a lower one.

The rest are true but the differences are marginal at best. There are disadvantages of course, such as reduced HT/HS margin and reduced resistance to fuel dilution (a particular problem for some engine designs). For me the "benefits" of a thinner oil do not outweigh the shortcomings but perhaps that's just me. As Honda puts it, low-viscosity oils provide "adequate" MOFT and "adequate" protection under most circumstances. As someone who keeps their vehicles to 300,000 miles and beyond that's just not good enough for me.

 

[yowps3]

Some of that is partially true but "flow" in an ICE is relatively irrelevant, the only flow that is really important is the ability of the oil pump to pump oil. That's what a revision to SAE J300 addressed and is reflected in a change to how the winter rating of the oil is obtained. As long as the oil does not gel under shear in the vicinity of the pump pickup then it will pump and it will flow. "Faster flow" applies to those goofy YouTube videos that show faster flow down a ramp or out of a bottle and this isn't relevant to ICE operation.

Also, heavier oils warm up faster than thinner ones so if that is your goal you should be using a higher grade, not a lower one.

The rest are true but the differences are marginal at best. There are disadvantages of course, such as reduced HT/HS margin and reduced resistance to fuel dilution (a particular problem for some engine designs). For me the "benefits" of a thinner oil do not outweigh the shortcomings but perhaps that's just me. As Honda puts it, low-viscosity oils provide "adequate" MOFT and "adequate" protection under most circumstances. As someone who keeps their vehicles to 300,000 miles and beyond that's just not good enough for me.

I agree. Oil type can be chosen based on a mix application and objectives.
However I always thought lighter oils would warm up quicker as they shed heat quicker due to their lesser densities - giving them more conductive properties. Same principle should be applicable in reverse?

 

[kschachn]

I agree. Oil type can be chosen based on a mix application and objectives.
However I always thought lighter oils would warm up quicker as they shed heat quicker due to their lesser densities - giving them more conductive properties. Same principle should be applicable in reverse?

No there is higher shear in thicker oils which heat them up faster. Shear is where most of the heat is generated.

Shedding heat later is different and I don't know about that.

 

[edyvw]

I agree. Oil type can be chosen based on a mix application and objectives.
However I always thought lighter oils would warm up quicker as they shed heat quicker due to their lesser densities - giving them more conductive properties. Same principle should be applicable in reverse?

No, lighter oils will provide better flow at lower engine temperatures. But, thicker oil will warm up faster. Lighter oils generally are a better choice in short trip commuting, grocery-getting etc. 0W20 oil will do a better job in protecting the engine than 5W30 if your commute is 3 miles long. However, if we are talking longer commute, heavier oils will warm up faster (and use marginally more gas). The key here is kinematic viscosity at 40c. Many people have such short commute that oil never reaches operating temperature than low viscosity oils have real benefit.
As for the pour point, it is irrelevant as long as we are not talking extreme cold like -40c or below. Then we can talk of pour point. If I lived in Fairbanks, AK, yes I would rather have oil with a pour point of -60 than -40. Pour point is a good indication of base stocks, so that is why there is talk about it.

 

[yowps3]

No, lighter oils will provide better flow at lower engine temperatures. But, thicker oil will warm up faster. Lighter oils generally are a better choice in short trip commuting, grocery-getting etc. 0W20 oil will do a better job in protecting the engine than 5W30 if your commute is 3 miles long. However, if we are talking longer commute, heavier oils will warm up faster (and use marginally more gas). The key here is kinematic viscosity at 40c. Many people have such short commute that oil never reaches operating temperature than low viscosity oils have real benefit.
As for the pour point, it is irrelevant as long as we are not talking extreme cold like -40c or below. Then we can talk of pour point. If I lived in Fairbanks, AK, yes I would rather have oil with a pour point of -60 than -40. Pour point is a good indication of base stocks, so that is why there is talk about it.

Yeah HTHS 3.2- 3.5 is just about right.
And it's just as important to have a formulation utilzing an above average high quality base oil. Sorry Castrol

 

[ftpohyeah]

No, lighter oils will provide better flow at lower engine temperatures. But, thicker oil will warm up faster. Lighter oils generally are a better choice in short trip commuting, grocery-getting etc. 0W20 oil will do a better job in protecting the engine than 5W30 if your commute is 3 miles long. However, if we are talking longer commute, heavier oils will warm up faster (and use marginally more gas). The key here is kinematic viscosity at 40c. Many people have such short commute that oil never reaches operating temperature than low viscosity oils have real benefit.
As for the pour point, it is irrelevant as long as we are not talking extreme cold like -40c or below. Then we can talk of pour point. If I lived in Fairbanks, AK, yes I would rather have oil with a pour point of -60 than -40. Pour point is a good indication of base stocks, so that is why there is talk about it.

If my commute is short say 3 miles but its heavy stop and go traffic, would the lighter weight oil still be more beneficial?

 

[kschachn]

Only to improve fuel economy by a minuscule amount.

 

[ftpohyeah]

Im learning a lot about oils in general. So i bought some redline high performance 5w40 because of the mb 229.5 certification. I also just found out redline high performance 5w40 is not approved by mercedes because it doesnt say MB-Approval? The oil should still be good because it meets the mb 229.5 qualification right?