Originally Posted by Oildudeny
Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
Neighbor mechanic buddy would run dino in specified grade a quart short and a quart of atf for the make up. Get the engine warm and dump.
How does using hydraulic fluid with little in the way of detergents help anything?
I'm not a mechanic or chemical engineer so it's beyond my knowledge. My neighbor is a long time Saab mechanic I have seen him do this for years. He buys, sells, owns and has the same customers come back time again for him to service repair and buy more vehicles from him. The cars he sells run like a clock for many years. ATF fluid has a lot of seal conditioners anti rust and corrosion inhibitors detergents and dispersants. Look it up.
From an actual oil formulator and member of this board:
Originally Posted by Molakule
I posted this in another thread but this may be of interest to the whole board. I have made some minor additions to it.
The main requirements of an ATF are thermal stability and friction modification (lubrication), with some anti-wear additive for the Sun, lock-up, and Planetary Gears, and of course, the needle/pin bearings. Add about 0.05% of anti-foamants (siloxanes) and some red dye for leak identification, and you have an special Hydraulic Oil called, 'ATF.' The formulator will tweak the additive package for each base oil type (group) or mixes of base oils.
Here is the chemistry for an ATF such as Dexron III:
(Average additive concentration by wt.% taken from seven (7) different additive packages)
Phosphorous - 0.3% AW additive
Zinc - 0.23% AW additive, anti-oxidant as ZDDP
Nitrogen - 0.9% AW additive
Boron - 0.16% Detergent and AW additive
Calcium - 0.05% Detergent/Dispersant, tbn base chemistry
Magnesium - 0.05% Detergent and base chemistry
Sulfur - 0.55% FM and AW
Barium - various% used as particlate control
In the newer ATF oils of Group II-III, added esters of lineoleic esters, TMP polyol ester, and PE polyol ester, and other carboxylic esters, act as FM additives. The Additives phosphorous, sulfur, and boron are usually added in the form of esters when formulated with the base oil. For fully synthetic oils, the PAO and polyol ester bases are the main Friction Modifiers.
The Mercon chemistries usually have higher concentrations of nitrogen and phosphorous.
Boron and Phosphorous act as the main AW additives if the ZDDP is low or non-existent.
Calcium and magnesium are, of course, base metals and provide the "basicity" to keep acids in check and provide the starting tbn.
It has been found that ZDDP will turn the red-dyed ATF brown through oxidation, so some formulators have reduced or taken out the ZDDP and replaced it with other AW additives.
To which the same legend is queried by another member:
Originally Posted by nick778
So what is it in ATF that provides the 'super cleaning' when they add it as an engine flush? I'm not advocating anyone do this but given that some do (ie, the post under the atf section), what detergent or ester chemistry is producing these stories of great egine flush cleaning properties. I do not see detergents in any greater concentrations that regualr motor oil.
And the response:
Originally Posted by Molakule
Old wive's tales from long, long ago. Actually a few less detergents than engine oils.
Compare this against Delo and the Delvac's.
And then some further explanation:
Originally Posted by Molakule
It is not a matter of additive package, but of viscosity as to the source of this old wive's tale about ATF being a flush.
ATF is 0W20 to 5W20 and thins out the engine oil. Take a thick 10W40 of 'yore,' and add some ATF and the result is a thinner oil that might act as a mild wash.
The Auto tranny sees no combustion gasses, no silicons (unless the dipstick become unseated), so the tranny case is essentially sealed.
The main requirements of an ATF are thermal stability and friction modification (lubrication), with some anti-wear additive for the Sun, lock-up, and Planetary Gears, and of course, the needle/pin bearings. Add about 0.01% of anti-foamants (siloxanes) and some red dye for leak identification, and you have an ATF.
So, using an ATF in an engine is a waste of money and causes the engine's lubricating fluid film to reduce in thickness.