Mack Truck laying off 100s in PA & MD

[SC Maintenance]

No.
For throusands of reasons.
There are several issues with tariffs.
1. The formula for tariffs is absolutely bonkers.
2. Tariffs were not nearly as high as they are portrayed (I will come back to China later). But on average, tariffs are 1-3%, and we do the same. Then there are quotas, which we also do. That is why the WTO was formed. To hash out this stuff.
3. People got themselves thinking that we can teleport ourselves to 1955. It ain't happening, and if they wanted to teleport themselves, they would teleport themselves back 100 times faster. As we can accuse Mack or any other company of mismanaging and just blaming tariffs, we can also accuse numerous towns and cities for mismanaging their economies and not recognizing shifts in the economic environment.
4. We imposed tariffs on things we don't make! It is dumb and proves how economically illiterate people are. We imposed tariffs on vanilla, coffee etc., things that CANNOT grow here! That is a direct tax on consumers. Also, those things come from poor countries. What in the name of God will we export to Lesotho? Boeing 777-9? The total GDP of the country is worth 5 Boeing's 777-9. A trade deficit with one country does not mean things are bad bcs. we make it up elsewhere. But yeah, I cannot wait for vanilla producers in the US or Boeing's being exported to Lesotho.
5. We are being hit with tariffs on stuff we do export: airplanes, avionics, jet engines, software services, financial services, social media etc. We just propped COMAC. China stopped Boeing deliveries, and guess who is the short-term winner? Airbus. Guess who is the long-term winner? COMAC. CCP will just make companies buy COMAC, and they will have to, no questions asked. They have an excuse now, and I think hit to Boeing might be 8,000+ airplanes over 10yrs. And yeah, phone call from China is not coming.
6. Now, China is and was an issue. China should be targeted where it really hurts. You want to invest in the US? You cannot unless it is joint venture, just like they condition us. TikTok was an issue until it was not. Where are we on that? But we decided just to put a blanket tariff on a country that is the biggest single importer of our airplanes, software, avionics, etc.

So lets assume I buy into all this - what is the solution? You can't run a current account deficit forever.

When the Fed dropped interest rates by 0.50% in November, the 10 year bond went up almost a full 1.0%.

When the market sold off over the last few weeks - the 10 year bond sold off also (lost value, rising yield). This only happens in failiing economies, where no one wants to buy your bonds. Typically bond prices are the inverse of stock prices - a flight to safety. This is what happens in Banana Republics, not the USA.

So were out of globalism rope. Not saying the current strategy will work, but going back to what was 2 years ago is literally not an option - even if 100% of the people agreed we should. The US bond markets would implode.

 

[wings&wheels]

No.

2. Tariffs were not nearly as high as they are portrayed (I will come back to China later). But on average, tariffs are 1-3%, and we do the same. Then there are quotas, which we also do. That is why the WTO was formed. To hash out this stuff.
3. People got themselves thinking that we can teleport ourselves to 1955. It ain't happening, and if they wanted to teleport themselves, they would teleport themselves back 100 times faster. As we can accuse Mack or any other company of mismanaging and just blaming tariffs, we can also accuse numerous towns and cities for mismanaging their economies and not recognizing shifts in the economic environment.

You cannot stress these enough, especially the overall tariff environment which never receives coverage by the "mainstream" (I hate that term) media. I almost referred folks to the US Harmonized Tarriff Schedule, but that is cruel and unusual...

 

[GON]

So lets assume I buy into all this - what is the solution? You can't run a current account deficit forever.

When the Fed dropped interest rates by 0.50% in November, the 10 year bond went up almost a full 1.0%.

When the market sold off over the last few weeks - the 10 year bond sold off also (lost value, rising yield). This only happens in failiing economies, where no one wants to buy your bonds. Typically bond prices are the inverse of stock prices - a flight to safety. This is what happens in Banana Republics, not the USA.

So were out of globalism rope. Not saying the current strategy will work, but going back to what was 2 years ago is literally not an option - even if 100% of the people agreed we should. The US bond markets would implode.

All one has to do is chart the interest rates paid on German debt, and compare these rates with U.S debt interest rates, and know "Houston, the U.S. has a catastrophic debt problem", and the rates for over the past 24 months on U.S. debt compared to German rates has clearly demonstrated this. It is right in front of us, yet many were wearing rose colored glasses over the U.S. debt, defict, and most importantly the U.S. trade deficit.

Addicts kick, scream, and cry when going into rehab. Addicts deny they have a problem. But if the addicts don't go into rehab more often than not they will die. If the addicts go to rehab and suffer the pain of rehab, they have a chance at a positive life going forward.

 

[SC Maintenance]

All one has to do is charter the interest rates paid on German debt, and compare these rates with U.S debt interest rates, and know "Houston, the U.S. has a catastrophic debt problem", and the rates for over the past 24 months on U.S. debt compared to German rates has clearly demonstrated this. It is right in front of us, yet many were wearing rose colored glasses over the U.S. debt, defict, and most importantly the U.S. trade deficit.

I agree 110%. Unfortunately the number of people that seem to understand this - even among this generally intelligent group - seems to be pretty small.

 

[wings&wheels]

Companies do not need an excuse such as tariffs to reduce staff or take other actions to cut expenses, they can and should do that in anticipation of the economy. No sensible company would be holding on to excess cost drivers such as staff, fleet, etc. while waiting for an excuse to cut as no excuse is needed. Companies are positioning themselves for what they expect to see in the market in an attempt to sustain margins in spite of decreasing revenue. Sadly, this can become somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy slowing down sectors of the economy in anticipation of a slowdown.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Companies do not need an excuse such as tariffs to reduce staff or take other actions to cut expenses, they can and should do that in anticipation of the economy. No sensible company would be holding on to excess cost drivers such as staff, fleet, etc. while waiting for an excuse to cut as no excuse is needed. Companies are positioning themselves for what they expect to see in the market in an attempt to sustain margins in spite of decreasing revenue. Sadly, this can become somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy slowing down sectors of the economy in anticipation of a slowdown.

Much easier to say "were laying people off due to tariff",

rather than say "were laying people off because management acted like morons for the last 5 years"

I will grant both can be true at the same time.

 

[4WD]

https://michiganadvance.com/2023/10...n-pennsylvania-we-deserve-our-fair-share-too/

 

[Dave Hess]

All one has to do is chart the interest rates paid on German debt, and compare these rates with U.S debt interest rates, and know "Houston, the U.S. has a catastrophic debt problem", and the rates for over the past 24 months on U.S. debt compared to German rates has clearly demonstrated this. It is right in front of us, yet many were wearing rose colored glasses over the U.S. debt, defict, and most importantly the U.S. trade deficit.

Addicts kick, scream, and cry when going into rehab. Addicts deny they have a problem. But if the addicts don't go into rehab more often than not they will die. If the addicts go to rehab and suffer the pain of rehab, they have a chance at a positive life going forward.

It’s better for a drug addict to go to rehab when they have a $100 daily crack habit…… verses a $500 daily crack.

I agree a recession is well deserved and needed in the USA.

Stop propping up the economy with trillions and trillions of cash pumped into the system.

 

[4WD]

It’s better for a drug addict to go to rehab when they have a $100 daily crack habit…… verses a $500 daily crack.

I agree a recession is well deserved and needed in the USA.

Stop propping up the economy with trillions and trillions of cash pumped into the system.

And on the subject - Stevie Wonder could see Mack has been going nowhere - but, but, but …

 

[AZjeff]

I agree 110%. Unfortunately the number of people that seem to understand this - even among this generally intelligent group - seems to be pretty small.

Absolutely and there is no way the average US citizen should need to know whatever is happening to German bonds or whatever Mr. GON is talking about as they go about their daily life. I wouldn't even know how to begin to chart interest rates on German debt and what that has to do with me. Earlier I said not 5% understands, revise that to under 1% and no apologies. If your thing is finance and or politics then sure this knowledge is part of your life.

 

[Dave Hess]

Russia wants them - may as well - they make their own military planes …

Yes, sell them to Russia.

 

[burbguy82]

How do Mack products stack up against the other players in regards to overall quality and development?

It seems there are plenty of truck makers. Might the competition just be 'real good'?

During my short time in the oil fields of Wyoming, I obtained a class B CDL, for driving "straight trucks"......which is to say trucks without trailers equipped with airbrakes.......

I asked the same question as you did to our company field mechanic. His opinion was that Mack trucks were built like tanks, and had very few issues. Several crews had at least one Mack Truck in their fleet, we had two. Built better for off road conditions. He did also say that Mack parts were not common between Mack and lets say Kenworth, which was the other truck brand we had. Mack used proprietary stuff like brake lines, and other such parts, that did not cross over with Kenworth, or freightliner or Peterbuilt. Many of those truck use generic parts to allow repair easy on the road, and easy for the mechanic.

Around where I live, many of the dump truck used to deliver gravel and such were Mack, but slowly have changed to Western Stars, of various models, like the 49X.

Again, I am not a truck expert, just relaying what one had told me.

OTR trucks are much more common, and Macks market share in OTR has been, by in large ,nonexistent. They are it seems changing that to get into the OTR market more agressively. Maybe this has to do with the layoffs.

 

[edyvw]

So lets assume I buy into all this - what is the solution? You can't run a current account deficit forever.

When the Fed dropped interest rates by 0.50% in November, the 10 year bond went up almost a full 1.0%.

When the market sold off over the last few weeks - the 10 year bond sold off also (lost value, rising yield). This only happens in failiing economies, where no one wants to buy your bonds. Typically bond prices are the inverse of stock prices - a flight to safety. This is what happens in Banana Republics, not the USA.

So were out of globalism rope. Not saying the current strategy will work, but going back to what was 2 years ago is literally not an option - even if 100% of the people agreed we should. The US bond markets would implode.

Either we pay what we spend or we spend less.
If everyone wants "good ole" days, well, taxes were a bit different then.
We went to two wars and cut taxes while doing it.

 

[edyvw]

All one has to do is chart the interest rates paid on German debt, and compare these rates with U.S debt interest rates, and know "Houston, the U.S. has a catastrophic debt problem", and the rates for over the past 24 months on U.S. debt compared to German rates has clearly demonstrated this. It is right in front of us, yet many were wearing rose colored glasses over the U.S. debt, defict, and most importantly the U.S. trade deficit.

Addicts kick, scream, and cry when going into rehab. Addicts deny they have a problem. But if the addicts don't go into rehab more often than not they will die. If the addicts go to rehab and suffer the pain of rehab, they have a chance at a positive life going forward.

So, we need to collect as much as other countries collect to support our spending, and government expenditures per capita are nowhere near as high as those in Germany etc.
But let me give you an example of Colorado. We cut income tax from 4.73% to I think 4.53%, and now we are running a deficit. Genius.

 

[edyvw]

And on top of that, the european market for boeings has also been alienated, and cost of planes increased. Maybe Boeing can sell their planes to Russia and Belarus, not many other potential customers remaining.

Here is the interesting chart:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/americans-want-more-u-factory-080000279.html

It is a bipartisan issue. Both democrats and republicans are equally supportive of the return of factory jobs. Also, they equally agree they don't want to work in factories.
In 2010, I was talking to two guys from Georgia State University about immigration issues, and they did some research around immigrants and whether they are taking American jobs.
90% of the carpet industry in the US is located around Dalton, GA (or at least at that time was). When the recession hit in 2007, local LOE, just like today, rushed to pick up some political points (Sheriff) and teamed up with immigration. They pretty much ran all the illegal immigrants out of there. After a month, CEO's of those companies threatened to pull out factories bcs. guess what? No one came to work in dusty and dirty carpet factories.
So, I am dying to see people lining up to make T-shirts, iPhone's etc.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Either we pay what we spend or we spend less.

Yes, but we already spent the money - so we can't austerity ourselves to success. If we did balance the budget tomorrow, unemployment would be 10%, and tax receipts would fall, meaning we would be back to deficit spending shortly.

If everyone wants "good ole" days, well, taxes were a bit different then.
We went to two wars and cut taxes while doing it.

True - but the millennials being asked to pay for all those wars were not even old enough to vote when they started

So yes you have a very good grasp of the problems that got us here, but don't seem to have realistic suggestions for how to move forward, other than stating you don't like current path?

 

[Vercingetorix]

So, I am dying to see people lining up to make T-shirts, iPhone's etc.

Either of those is infinitely preferable to picking tomatoes in 100 degree heat.

 

[edyvw]

Yes, but we already spent the money - so we can't austerity ourselves to success. If we did balance the budget tomorrow, unemployment would be 10%, and tax receipts would fall, meaning we would be back to deficit spending shortly.

True - but the millennials being asked to pay for all those wars were not even old enough to vote when they started

So yes you have a very good grasp of the problems that got us here, but don't seem to have realistic suggestions for how to move forward, other than stating you don't like current path?

OK, let's go with making T-shirts and socks.

 

[edyvw]

Either of those is infinitely preferable to picking tomatoes in 100 degree heat.

Tough choices.

 

[Sumboodie]

Mack quit being Mack 20 years ago.

Now they are crappy cheap Vulvos with Mack badges.

And it's a darn shame. "BUILT LIKE A MACK" meant it was a brick **** house back in the day. R model, Super Liner, etc.