Mach-E sales drop 40% - Fickle market

[UncleDave]

Your entire wrath is 100% about me saying Ford targeted their first EV at the wrong demographic by calling it a Mustang. I said nothing negative against EV's in general or Tesla. If you have an alternate theory on Mach E sales what say you? You would rather troll and argue about EV's.

As for expensive half tons - there are certainly outliers but a lot of guys I know that buy expensive half tons are contractors, and they immediately take a special first year depreciation on it thats likely half its value. If you made a lot of money this year and you have a business or side business, it would be a good year to do it. I know several people with a hobby "farm" and a couple guys that own rental properties - and they do exactly this. You could also do it on a mach-e - if you can justify you need it for your job. Maybe a realtor or something? My guess is that's a smaller percentage than F150's sales.

Where I live is irrelevant. If your trying to calculate my EV ROI, I can do that myself, and there is no positive ROI for almost any length of time in South Carolina. Our gas is cheap, our electricity is not, and there is no additional state rebate. Some people still own them, and thats certainly there choice. I don't need a 4x4 but I own 2 - so same difference.

Throwing out false strawman's on others theories you don't like doesn't add to the discussion.

I'll stop feeding the troll now.

There is no " wrath " Im just talking and if we were at a campfire the discussion would take 3 minutes.
Mail is devoid of inflection and tone so it always sound like people are arguing.

Your claim I disagreed with was they "were 60K+ and for the wealthy" - you left no room for averages in you original comment.
You later asked about averages.

You also seemed to think Telsa pricing was different for you than anyone else in the us by claiming they weren't under 60K " there".
You got this wrong, and somehow Im the one with straw man therories.

Seems we are actually pretty close to alignment if not aligned on the mach e " mustang " name - that was lazy marketing

You can either charge at home or you cant. I could care less where you live.

Pretty sure a mach-e isnt' over 6K GVWR like most half tons - which is the min to accelerate depreciation.
You could deduct it - but not accelerated .

If electricity is expensive and gas is cheap there may be no ROI, but charging at home is the bees knees and they are fun to drive.

You started with the name calling -
You calle me a "tesla fanboy" - but you dont see me bashing on them for the roadster they haven't delivered to the owner of my company that hes 50K out on, and Elon should be embarrassed hes so late with the ridiculous cybertuck. I think he was stupid to try to re invent the truck.
The cars they nailed. Teslas batteries, charging, efficiency, and performance is top flight.

Wrath, outrage, troll - lose the drama and the name calling.

 

[UncleDave]

EV rebates are just like cash for clunkers - a windfall profit for the auto makers at the expense of the working poor.

For the record lest anyone shout bias, I am not the working poor (anymore). But I grew up as that and still think that way, and always will I suppose.

....but you have no issue with the accelerated depreciation subsidy.

So EV subsidy bad, half ton/6K subsidy good.

Seems like bias to me?

 

[SC Maintenance]

....but you have no issue with the accelerated depreciation subsidy.

So EV subsidy bad, half ton/6K subsidy good.

Seems like bias to me?

You can take the exact same deduction on any EV. There is no bias - F150 or EV or a piece of factory equipment. No reason you can't - if you can actually use it for work. I said in the exact statement earlier that you could deduct an EV in the same manner - maybe realtor, sales person, or whatever? Just likely not as common since its hard to haul a bail of hay or a 2x4 in a model 3, although I suppose you could if you wanted.

Thats wildly different than giving everyone with a tax liability a deduction on a very specific product. Picking winners or loosers.

If you want to argue that overall the tax system if screwed up - you will get no argument from me.

Another false strawman troll.

 

[UncleDave]

You can take the exact same deduction on any EV. There is no bias - F150 or EV or a piece of factory equipment. No reason you can't - if you can actually use it for work. I said in the exact statement earlier that you could deduct an EV in the same manner - maybe realtor, sales person, or whatever? Just likely not as common since its hard to haul a bail of hay or a 2x4 in a model 3, although I suppose you could if you wanted.

Thats wildly different than giving everyone with a tax liability a deduction on a very specific product. Picking winners or loosers.

If you want to argue that overall the tax system if screwed up - you will get no argument from me.

Another false strawman troll.

Its false to say you can get the same deduction on "any Ev".

It would have to be over 6K GVWR

Compare the number of vehicles sold that qualify, the far bigger windfall for the manufacturers is 179.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Pretty sure a mach-e isnt' over 6K GVWR like most half tons - which is the min to accelerate depreciation.

Untrue - Only difference is the upper limit of first year acceleration. So
https://support.taxslayerpro.com/hc...d-Bonus-Depreciation-Limitations-on-Vehicles-

 

[UncleDave]

Untrue - Only difference is the upper limit of first year acceleration. So
https://support.taxslayerpro.com/hc...d-Bonus-Depreciation-Limitations-on-Vehicles-


View attachment 138719

What part of what I said is untrue?

I said you could deduct the machE in post 141 - I said you couldnt accelerate it.

Ive taken 179 on my work trucks all my life.

 

[SC Maintenance]

What part of what I said is untrue?

I said you could deduct the machE in post 141 - I said you couldnt accelerate it.

Ive taken 179 on my work trucks all my life.

Bonus depreciation = accelerated depreciation. You can take the 179 and the bonus. Read the link. Whatever the technical term is for whatever deduction your discussing - mach e or F250 is no different. Only difference is the cap in year 1.

If someone makes an e-truck >6000GVWR they will get the same no limit depreciation. I believe they may also get the $7500 EV credit also - but that part is less clear to me. I am not a tax expert. I have stayed at a HIXpress before.

 

[UncleDave]

Bonus depreciation = accelerated depreciation. You can take the 179 and the bonus. Read the link. Whatever the technical term is for whatever deduction your discussing - mach e or F250 is no different. Only difference is the cap in year 1

How is an EV under 6K equal to a half ton that is?

You can take SOME depreciation on work vehicle under 6K - you've alway s been able to.

Thats not the gift to manufacturers.

When you hit 6K you get it all.

 

[UncleDave]

"You can take the exact same deduction on any EV. There is no bias - F150 or EV or a piece of factory equipment."

If an SUV under 6K cannot take unlimited depreciation deduction - and an F150 can - how is there no bias between the two?

 

[UncleDave]

If someone makes an e-truck >6000GVWR they will get the same no limit depreciation. I believe they may also get the $7500 EV credit also - but that part is less clear to me. I am not a tax expert. I have stayed at a HIXpress before.

Weight equal - agreed.

Im not sure how may you can concurrently take either. You may be able to take it all.

My point in the subsidy is that million upon millions of half tons qualify for the max rate - and a tiny number rand amount of EV's do.

 

[SC Maintenance]

"You can take the exact same deduction on any EV. There is no bias - F150 or EV or a piece of factory equipment."

If an SUV under 6K cannot take unlimited depreciation deduction - and an F150 can - how is there no bias between the two?

You inferred above that the EV credit is fine because of the Bonus / 179 depreciation - or seemed to reflect I didnt? Not sure. Anyway bonus depreciation It makes no stipulation on power plant. It can be gas, electric, Diesel or a steam engine if you can get it by the EPA. The free market decides.

If you want to argue depreciation in general is wrong - well beyond my pay grade. Should General Mills get to depreciate their plant? I don't know? But if they get to, then farmer Joe can depreciate his truck.

The bonus vs 5 year depreciation is the same after 5 years. You either get to take a bunch in year 1 or not. Even if your capped - in 5 years everyone is equal - how I understand it.

If I buy a camry I never get a $7500 EV credit. Ever.

My insinuation is that the EV tax credit is wrong because it selects a particular winner - EV's. Your the one making a comparison where there is no comparison to be made. AKA false strawman AKA troll.

I need to take my own advice on feeding the troll. My bad.

 

[UncleDave]

You inferred above that the EV credit is fine because of the Bonus / 179 depreciation - or seemed to reflect I didnt? Not sure. Anyway bonus depreciation It makes no stipulation on power plant. It can be gas, electric, Diesel or a steam engine if you can get it by the EPA. The free market decides.

If you want to argue depreciation in general is wrong - well beyond my pay grade. Should General Mills get to depreciate their plant? I don't know? But if they get to, then farmer Joe can depreciate his truck.

The bonus vs 5 year depreciation is the same after 5 years. You either get to take a bunch in year 1 or not. Even if your capped - in 5 years everyone is equal - how I understand it.

If I buy a camry I never get a $7500 EV credit. Ever.

My insinuation is that the EV tax credit is wrong because it selects a particular winner - EV's. Your the one making a comparison where there is no comparison to be made. AKA false strawman AKA troll.

I need to take my own advice on feeding the troll. My bad.

My position is that all subsidies are bad. Im for removing them all.

Yours is that EV credits are bad because they pick winners, but the far larger one that mainly benefits half tons and costs the taxpayers far more is ok. Accountants call it the truck and SUV deduction - but you can pretend it's not targeted.

I never argued the yearly distribution of the subsidy wasnt up front - thats the whole point of it - what you can take up front.

As the guy doing the name calling, calling me the troll is funny.

I never started calling you names, and kept this high level.

Several years ago, Section 179 was often referred to as the “SUV Tax Loophole” or the “Hummer Deduction” because many businesses have used this tax code to write-off the purchase of qualifying vehicles at the time (like SUV’s and Hummers). But that particular benefit of Section 179 has been severely reduced in recent years (see ‘Vehicles & Section 179‘ for current limits on business vehicles.)​

https://www.section179.org/section_179_deduction/

 

[Torrid]

The thing is, it can be a hassle on a trip. It's far different because it requires planning and lots of waiting. Especially with non Tesla brands.

I drive far more than most. My regular 19 hour 1350 mile F150 trip FL to PA, (2 fuel stops in the 2011) (1 fuel stop in the 2018). I Stop when I am good and ready, and not a second sooner. 3 minutes to fill up, random restroom breaks. Any way you slice it, EV's are not that way.

I would assume you needed to haul or tow? Obviously that plays a big part, not a must though. That was the nice thing with my F150. Whole family, both dogs, but loaded down and of course it's much quicker to fuel even the 36 gallon tank. I just got tired of the size of the gas bills and I'll concede an extra 10-15 minutes on my stop for that cost these days. I wasn't towing with that though so it's less of a transition for me.

 

[Torrid]

Maybe you could try that - I wouldnt.

Start with a full battery at your house every day and see where the range gets you and whats in between to charge.

It may not work for you. Your neighbor may never have a problem.

You can only speak to your usage, just like I can only speak for mine.

GM'S volt study showed something like 80% of the US drivers commute something like 40 miles a day.

I have two trucks that tow - EV's may never be able to replace them, but a sedan or SUV would work fine for me on tow free trips.

One size doenst work for all.

I do anywhere between 80-120 miles a day in most cases. I really like the fact that my wife chose her daily to be electric. I've used it on occasion as a proof of concept and have found it will work for me 95% of the time. My 5% of the time just happened this week. I have a 2.5 hour drive for work tomorrow, will stay there for two days and make the 2.5 hour drive back. I won't be testing it this time but the city I'm going to has a Supercharger so it would be fine. I'm just not going to steal her car to throw 350 miles on it.

I just realized how this sounded after the fact. It would likely work for me 100% of the time. This is the only scenario I haven't directly used it for to test for.

 

[UncleDave]

I do anywhere between 80-120 miles a day in most cases. I really like the fact that my wife chose her daily to be electric. I've used it on occasion as a proof of concept and have found it will work for me 95% of the time. My 5% of the time just happened this week. I have a 2.5 hour drive for work tomorrow, will stay there for two days and make the 2.5 hour drive back. I won't be testing it this time but the city I'm going to has a Supercharger so it would be fine. I'm just not going to steal her car to throw 350 miles on it.

I just realized how this sounded after the fact. It would likely work for me 100% of the time. This is the only scenario I haven't directly used it for to test for.

How much amperage at home do you have to charge with?

 

[Torrid]

How much amperage at home do you have to charge with?

Just 12a on the standard 120v. The plan is to upgrade to 30a 240v in the next few months to prepare for 2 electric cars and also when we need that dead to full charge overnight.

 

[UncleDave]

Just 12a on the standard 120v. The plan is to upgrade to 30a 240v in the next few months to prepare for 2 electric cars and also when we need that dead to full charge overnight.

So she's probably in a 40 mile window or so daily?

Im used to hosting Rv's so Ive got a 50 amp which is nice.

 

[Torrid]

So she's probably in a 40 mile window or so daily?

Im used to hosting Rv's so Ive got a 50 amp which is nice.

Yeah definitely, I'd say that's about the average. It's used mostly in town but she handles the majority of the shopping and will go to 60-70 miles round trip occasionally for those trips since we're in a small town. The car will probably get 6k-7k miles a year. If you have access to a 50amp then you're golden. I'd work every variation of my job with 240v and a Tesla. My only concern is on a cold day if I get called for a job that I round trip at 120miles so I'm using more power than normal and I get called on rest(10 hours) to return I don't think gaining 40-50 miles overnight is going to do it after 3 days. Realistically I'm waiting to see what this new hatch is like. I want something still the size of the GTI with some stupid acceleration and the right styling and I'm in.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Just 12a on the standard 120v. The plan is to upgrade to 30a 240v in the next few months to prepare for 2 electric cars and also when we need that dead to full charge overnight.

If you are going to add a circuit, why not a NEMA 14-50? Our Model 3 Mid Range oulls 30-32A and charges form 28-32 MPH.