IVD largely depends on the design of the PCV system and it is essentially a non-issue after around 20 yrs of DI engine development. That being said, per Lubrizol circa 2004, a C3 oil will have less deposits all else being equal but as I said earlier it's a non issue today anyways. Another thing is that more cars are coming equipped with dual PFI/DI to improve low speed emissions so the intake valves are exposed to gasoline. Mid-SAPs oils (C3) were developed for use with ULSG/ULSD. The US market has moved towards these oils since the move to ULSG years ago. Euro makes continue to ship cars with OPF (Otto Particulate Filter). IIRC every off the shelf 20 grade would fall under low saps.
M1 ESP 0W-30 vs M1 Euro/FS 0W-40
- Thread starter daveatthebill
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The only excerpt I have found of this mythical paper compared a "Euro 3" oil to a "Euro 4" oil, with the Euro 3 oil causing significantly more deposits. No mention of C3 or "all else being equal."
How old is Euro 3? 2000? Comparing a 20 year-old oil to a 25 year-old oil and making conclusions about using a C3 vs an A3/B4 oil in 2025 doesn't make sense.
edyvw
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Link to that paper is removed. It is still here somewhere in Euro section, but Lubrizol removed study.
As far as I remember comparison was VW502.00 and VW504.00 and VW502.00 (A3) left 167% more intake valve deposits.
edyvw
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I think it was VW and both engines were VW, one TDI and one EA113 or 888, not sure.
But, it has been at least 10yrs since I read this.
The SAPS limits for C3 and A3/B4 have not changed. "Euro 3" and "Euro 4" are emissions standards. C3 oils meet "Euro 4".
Remember, Lubrizol is an additive supplier.
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Again--there is no support for the claim "all else being equal." Other papers mention heavier oils or ones with more volatile base oils having more deposits. A lighter C3 oil with better bases would then likely have less IVD due to those factors, no? SAPS isn't being controlled for in a simple A/B test like that. It's very weird that this claim about SAPS seems to be based entirely on one paper that's gone missing.
It was a presentation not a paper which specifically addressed IVD with the move from Euro 3 to Euro 4. The amount of IVD, per Lubrizol, were related to the additive (Full vs Mid-Saps). I no longer have access to the presentation but if you're inclined you can probably find an archived link via Google I've posted the link on BITOG many times. Remember this was a presentation given in the early 2000's.
Edit: Now I'm annoyed with you because you clearly haven't spent much time looking for it. I found it in about 15 sec. There's an embedded link in my post below.
Post in thread 'BMW M3 (F80) Oil Selection & SAPS concern - S55' https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...election-saps-concern-s55.388162/post-7035641
I'm sorry, I only looked everywhere else, unfortunately I didn't think to search for "BMWTurboDzl Lubrizol Presentation"
So, now that we have a copy, can you show where they tested anything besides two oils? There is no control for SAPS. They just mentioned it as a benefit to the newer standard.
This is essentially just 19 year-old promo material for Euro 4, not a paper. No mention of VW 502/504 as has repeatedly been claimed either. No details on the oils other than "Euro 3/4". No information on which viscosity was tested, oil manufacturer, methods, etc.
My search was "Lubrizol Presentation".I'm sorry, I only looked everywhere else, unfortunately I didn't think to search for "BMWTurboDzl Lubrizol Presentation"
So, now that we have a copy, can you show where they tested anything besides two oils? There is no control for SAPS. They just mentioned it as a benefit to the newer standard.
This is essentially just 19 year-old promo material for Euro 4, not a paper. No mention of VW 502/504 as has repeatedly been claimed either. No details on the oils other than "Euro 3/4". No information on which viscosity was tested, oil manufacturer, methods, etc.
I don't know what you mean by 502 vs 504. Anyways take the presentation for what it's worth. A Euro 3 oil would be A3/B4 and a Euro 4 oil would be a Cx oil.
edyvw
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Sulfated Ash is a metallic compound that is a byproduct. The carbonization of valves is caused by sulfated ash as well as the eventual death of DPF/GPF.I'm sorry, I only looked everywhere else, unfortunately I didn't think to search for "BMWTurboDzl Lubrizol Presentation"
So, now that we have a copy, can you show where they tested anything besides two oils? There is no control for SAPS. They just mentioned it as a benefit to the newer standard.
This is essentially just 19 year-old promo material for Euro 4, not a paper. No mention of VW 502/504 as has repeatedly been claimed either. No details on the oils other than "Euro 3/4". No information on which viscosity was tested, oil manufacturer, methods, etc.
Lubrizol is one of the largest additive blenders in the world. But, hey, if you say so, then we settled the debate.
I don't think we settled it, I just haven't seen anyone provide a decent study showing that claim to be the case. Just a 19 year-old presentation saying that the euro 4 oil performed better than a euro 3.
It's much easier to find sources making specific claims about base oil attributes than SAPS additives in terms of IVD. But we want to assume our priors are correct, so let's just stick with assumptions hey?
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
So, you call the Lubrizol document an "assumption?"
I don’t think it’s an assumption, but it’s not properly controlled as the oils do not appear to be formulated exactly the same outside of the additive package. Surely it has an impact, but it’s difficult to quantify how much.
I kind of agree with this older post on the topic:
"I will argue that the sulfated ash (SA) level -- that is the metal content of an oil -- does not matter for intake valve deposits (IVD) in gasoline direct-injection engines.
The IVD is mostly composed of coked base oil with ash (metal) additives that doesn't evaporate. It also contains some exhaust particulates (from EGR) etc.
However, since the primary building block of the IVD is coked base oil, how much would the SA level really make a difference? The base oil makes roughly 80% of the oil, whereas the ash is only about 1%. Therefore, I will argue that since the IVD is mostly coked base oil, the ash level has a small effect.
In order to combat the IVD, the following all help:
(1) Higher-quality base oils, such as PAO and POE, or the poor-man's higher-quality base oils such Group III+ and GTL.
(2) More antioxidant to reduce the oil coking.
(3) More or better detergent and dispersant to keep things clean.
(4) More POE or AN to increase the solvency of the oil, which could loosen up some of the coked oil.
There doesn't seem to be any research on this other than a faulty Lubrizol field study that compared a superior (Euro IV) low-SAPS oil to an inferior (Euro III) full-SAPS oil, which obviously favored the Euro IV oil, regardless of the SAPS. Any thoughts?"
"I will argue that the sulfated ash (SA) level -- that is the metal content of an oil -- does not matter for intake valve deposits (IVD) in gasoline direct-injection engines.
The IVD is mostly composed of coked base oil with ash (metal) additives that doesn't evaporate. It also contains some exhaust particulates (from EGR) etc.
However, since the primary building block of the IVD is coked base oil, how much would the SA level really make a difference? The base oil makes roughly 80% of the oil, whereas the ash is only about 1%. Therefore, I will argue that since the IVD is mostly coked base oil, the ash level has a small effect.
In order to combat the IVD, the following all help:
(1) Higher-quality base oils, such as PAO and POE, or the poor-man's higher-quality base oils such Group III+ and GTL.
(2) More antioxidant to reduce the oil coking.
(3) More or better detergent and dispersant to keep things clean.
(4) More POE or AN to increase the solvency of the oil, which could loosen up some of the coked oil.
There doesn't seem to be any research on this other than a faulty Lubrizol field study that compared a superior (Euro IV) low-SAPS oil to an inferior (Euro III) full-SAPS oil, which obviously favored the Euro IV oil, regardless of the SAPS. Any thoughts?"
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