Lucid Air Gravity- Closing Gap W/ Ice

[Torrid]

Well, under ideal conditions and everything was 100% efficient, and you don't mind shortening the battery life by running it from 100 to 5%, it does seem fairly practical.
But the efficiency loss from the house electricity meter to the the top 10% of the battery capacity must get pretty high, and in general chargers and batteries are only 85-90% efficient. Then when its -15C every night for 3 weeks, it takes some serious kwh to keep a battery warm enough not to just lose half its charge just sitting there. It might burn $1-2 in electricity per day for a 1/3 of the year just keeping the battery warm?
So I would guess over a year, with a couple months where daytime battery cooling could be needed, using real winter tires, charging efficiency loses, needing the car to heat the battery almost every night for 5-6 months of the year and heat it all day for 4-5 months, and the winter range loss, the real cost of "fuel" per mile of driving might get very close to the same as a 30-35mpg gas car.
Then the car needs to be plugged in for most of the winter nights, and planning trips and motels where charging is available, and fast charging fees possibly being very high, it becomes a bit of chore and possibly quite a bit more expensive.
I'm not opposed to an EV, but I don't want to pay much more for it, and then have another factor to manage the family activities around. I'm sure when I'm retired and the kids are out of the house, the EV batteries and cars will have better cost to utility value, at least one of our cars will be an EV. Right now it would have to be the 3rd car which certainly doesn't save me any money then.

Considering how much I've shown how my 35mpg car costed 3x as much to drive as my 11 second Tesla not counting oil changes and other scheduled maintenance, I'd love to see how you arrived at an extra dollar of battery warming is going to make it equivalent to a 30-35mpg car cost wise.

 

[jghall00]

Well, under ideal conditions and everything was 100% efficient, and you don't mind shortening the battery life by running it from 100 to 5%, it does seem fairly practical.
But the efficiency loss from the house electricity meter to the the top 10% of the battery capacity must get pretty high, and in general chargers and batteries are only 85-90% efficient. Then when its -15C every night for 3 weeks, it takes some serious kwh to keep a battery warm enough not to just lose half its charge just sitting there. It might burn $1-2 in electricity per day for a 1/3 of the year just keeping the battery warm?
So I would guess over a year, with a couple months where daytime battery cooling could be needed, using real winter tires, charging efficiency loses, needing the car to heat the battery almost every night for 5-6 months of the year and heat it all day for 4-5 months, and the winter range loss, the real cost of "fuel" per mile of driving might get very close to the same as a 30-35mpg gas car.
Then the car needs to be plugged in for most of the winter nights, and planning trips and motels where charging is available, and fast charging fees possibly being very high, it becomes a bit of chore and possibly quite a bit more expensive.
I'm not opposed to an EV, but I don't want to pay much more for it, and then have another factor to manage the family activities around. I'm sure when I'm retired and the kids are out of the house, the EV batteries and cars will have better cost to utility value, at least one of our cars will be an EV. Right now it would have to be the 3rd car which certainly doesn't save me any money then.

That's not how it works, but OK. I can tell when someone is wedded to their position. I currently have two ICE vehicles, including an Expedition and an Altima. My EV saves me a lot of time and money on fuel and maintenance.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Well, under ideal conditions and everything was 100% efficient, and you don't mind shortening the battery life by running it from 100 to 5%, it does seem fairly practical.
But the efficiency loss from the house electricity meter to the the top 10% of the battery capacity must get pretty high, and in general chargers and batteries are only 85-90% efficient. Then when its -15C every night for 3 weeks, it takes some serious kwh to keep a battery warm enough not to just lose half its charge just sitting there. It might burn $1-2 in electricity per day for a 1/3 of the year just keeping the battery warm?
So I would guess over a year, with a couple months where daytime battery cooling could be needed, using real winter tires, charging efficiency loses, needing the car to heat the battery almost every night for 5-6 months of the year and heat it all day for 4-5 months, and the winter range loss, the real cost of "fuel" per mile of driving might get very close to the same as a 30-35mpg gas car.
Then the car needs to be plugged in for most of the winter nights, and planning trips and motels where charging is available, and fast charging fees possibly being very high, it becomes a bit of chore and possibly quite a bit more expensive.
I'm not opposed to an EV, but I don't want to pay much more for it, and then have another factor to manage the family activities around. I'm sure when I'm retired and the kids are out of the house, the EV batteries and cars will have better cost to utility value, at least one of our cars will be an EV. Right now it would have to be the 3rd car which certainly doesn't save me any money then.

I don't know much about cold weather ownership, but the cost to operate an EV is pretty darn cheap. Of course, it depends on your use case, every car does.

No services, just warsher fluid. I charge using that big fusion reactor up in the sky. The Tesla fits my use case. I have learned to hate going to gas stations. Expensive and a huge waste of time. One fill up cost is equal to a month in the EV; plus throw in the house electricity for free. You have to go out of your way to fuel up, and wait in line? Sheesh.

 

[E365]

Companies don't get to assign themselves an EPA number and are subject to investigation and or testing at any time and can be fined up the wazoo if they lie to the EPA.

I do understand your position though.

I never had an Ice car that came anywhere close to its number on the Munrony sticker, and it was just a given that the cycle tests weren't representative of reality, no one bats an eye. Right off the bat they use real unadulterated gas without ethanol which isnt even possible to find in lots of places.

Im curious how you feel about charging claims?

Do you feel that GM and or others should put an "*" on their recharge time claims due to the HVAC conflict these cars exhibit where simply running HVAC during charging can totally collapse the the recharge rate?

There’s a huge variety of tests and correction factors in play. I don’t pretend to understand all this testing, but it seems like there’s tons of room for automakers to adjust the numbers and still be “legal”.

I’ll try to find a reference, but many times I’ve heard* the car companies will adjust their numbers lower to match more real-world results. Porsche is mentioned frequently.

* Out of Spec, Batteries Included, InsideEVs, etc.

And I get there’s a massive variability is everything we’re talking about here. But, this 450 mile range number never made much sense from day 1. A large, 3-row SUV with a 123kWh battery going 450 miles? Too good to be true….

 

[UncleDave]

There’s a huge variety of tests and correction factors in play. I don’t pretend to understand all this testing, but it seems like there’s tons of room for automakers to adjust the numbers and still be “legal”.

I’ll try to find a reference, but many times I’ve heard* the car companies will adjust their numbers lower to match more real-world results. Porsche is mentioned frequently.

* Out of Spec, Batteries Included, InsideEVs, etc.

And I get there’s a massive variability is everything we’re talking about here. But, this 450 mile range number never made much sense from day 1. A large, 3-row SUV with a 123kWh battery going 450 miles? Too good to be true….

Id certainly prefer if everyone was more realistic.

I dont doubt it can hit that number in a 5 cycle test which uses 21.2 and 48 MPH for city and highway speed.

Realistic use case ? Not for me or most here.

 

[IndyIan]

That's not how it works, but OK. I can tell when someone is wedded to their position. I currently have two ICE vehicles, including an Expedition and an Altima. My EV saves me a lot of time and money on fuel and maintenance.

Well, I haven't found anyone actually tracking their kwh input into the charger in a cold climate, with a car outdoors? These batteries can't drop below certain temperatures and it takes energy to keep them there, whether you drive it or not, so I made my best guesses. Everyone is focuses on range in the winter, and the solution is to keep it plugged in, and preheat the car when its plugged in. Easy to do at home, but away from home in the winter, many of the places I go are not typically set up for that.

Considering how much I've shown how my 35mpg car costed 3x as much to drive as my 11 second Tesla not counting oil changes and other scheduled maintenance, I'd love to see how you arrived at an extra dollar of battery warming is going to make it equivalent to a 30-35mpg car cost wise.

Sorry I don't recall seeing your cost comparison? Please link the post.

I spent about $2700 per year on gas for my Focus for 30000km.
For an AWD Model3 long range, my estimate for my usage of, mostly highway, winter tires for 5 months, parked outside, need a ski box, is not ideal for an EV.
So I multiplied the EPA rating of 16.1kwh/100km by 1.6
I pay ~.21/kwh electricity
The equals about $1550 in electricity costs per year, if I charged always at home. Fast chargers here seem to be around .60-.70/kwh, and I might do 5000km using them?
That brings the Model3 fuel costs to $2250/yr.

So its not quite the slam dunk decision to go with an EV for me. With a simple $8k gas car, and doing my own maintenance, servicing isn't really that much. $150/year for fluids? Brake pads every 100k km? Some suspension/steering parts. An 8-9 year old model 3 is still $18-20k here and has lots of things to go wrong and wear out too? Some range reduction at least, and I see a few for sale with dead battery packs, so it happens...

 

[jghall00]

Well, I haven't found anyone actually tracking their kwh input into the charger in a cold climate, with a car outdoors? These batteries can't drop below certain temperatures and it takes energy to keep them there, whether you drive it or not, so I made my best guesses. Everyone is focuses on range in the winter, and the solution is to keep it plugged in, and preheat the car when its plugged in. Easy to do at home, but away from home in the winter, many of the places I go are not typically set up for that.

There were some Canadian EV owners on the Focus boards when I a Focus Electric. I think the general consensus was that as long as the car could handle a daily commute, keeping the pack warm wasn't really a concern. The Focus only had 100 miles of range when new, so even 40% range hit in the winter was acceptable for those with comparatively short commutes.

 

[E365]

Charging test on a “true” Tesla V4. But there’s only 1 or 2 Tesla V4 stations in the world, unfortunately. It should do this on the new Alpitronic HYC1000s too (and other 600kW+ chargers coming out soon).

Very impressive!


Hit 419kW peak
0-50% (215 miles of range) in ~12 minutes.
0-70% (303 miles of range) in ~20 minutes
0-80% (347 miles of range) in ~26 minutes

 

[Brons2]

Charging test on a “true” Tesla V4. But there’s only 1 or 2 Tesla V4 stations in the world, unfortunately. It should do this on the new Alpitronic HYC1000s too (and other 600kW+ chargers coming out soon).

Very impressive!


Hit 419kW peak
0-50% (215 miles of range) in ~12 minutes.
0-70% (303 miles of range) in ~20 minutes
0-80% (347 miles of range) in ~26 minutes

Now if we can just get it to not cost an arm and a leg.

 

[jghall00]

Now if we can just get it to not cost an arm and a leg.

Just wait a few years for the off-lease sale.

 

[UncleDave]

Now if we can just get it to not cost an arm and a leg.

Lucid is supposed to come out with a cost reduced version.

 

[Trav]

Utility is only a small factor in its price. The fact that it can beat any factory Chevrolet in a drag race comes into play as well.

There's nothing a dislike more than some crazy arbitrary comparison. You could do something similar with a Camry and an S-Class. I like value for money, but that's not what Lucid or just to make it hit home, what Jaguar does.

Comparing road use vehicles drag race time is not realistic, most people couldn't care less. China is already looking at regulating 0-60 times and Europe and the US will not be far behind, once they claim it is a safety issue you can etch that in stone.
I see around here more cities and towns have a city wide 25mph limit and they are using speed cameras to enforce it. Sooner than later the performance of electric motors and high powered ice engine vehicles will be neutered.

https://insideevs.com/news/778775/china-ev-60-mph-seconds/

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-speed-limits

 

[97prizm]

If we take the fun but somewhat silly 20 year old sedan comparison off the table for a minute and look at current alternatives about the only thing I can find that gives me similar envelope in utility is the Tahoe RST with the 6.2.

I won't consider an eco boost with an internal water pump, and all the Euro stuff is off the table, but Id be curious what anyone here would put up. A Sequoia maybe, I wouldnt consider a wagoneer.

Outfitted full up its going to cost me over 80 large . So the delta between configs is really about 30K the way Id outfit it. - Tahoe.

Can I say the GM 6.2 and its 10 speed are going to give me reliable performance for a decade of hard use? Not long ago Id gibe the edge to the small block but there have been lots of problems, and not just with lifters - since there isnt a recall on the lucid at the moment Ill give this one to the Lucid.

They both have about the same seating and cargo, . I think there are few more feet in the back of the tahoe but the lucid has a frunk - Tie.

They weight close enough to where it doesn't matter. Tie.

They both perform well, but the lucid wins here with authority and is immune to altitude based perfomance degradation. Lucid.

The tahoe tows a little more, but I'm good with 5K. Tahoe.

The lucid is FAR easier to live with day to day and far more economical. I can charge the Lucid off my roof. Lucid

Im going to get triple or more brake life from the Lucid because of regen, whats a full brembo brake job cost ? Lucid.

Fueling on a road trip - for me these are the same, but I'll give it to the Tahoe because no one here uses a bathroom buys coffee washes their windows, or gets a snack - Tahoe.

Overall maintenance over 100K miles - Lucid.

What about a used Caddy Escalde-V?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Comparing road use vehicles drag race time is not realistic, most people couldn't care less. China is already looking at regulating 0-60 times and Europe and the US will not be far behind, once they claim it is a safety issue you can etch that in stone.
I see around here more cities and towns have a city wide 25mph limit and they are using speed cameras to enforce it. Sooner than later the performance of electric motors and high powered ice engine vehicles will be neutered.

https://insideevs.com/news/778775/china-ev-60-mph-seconds/

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-speed-limits

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" marketing philosophy... It's thought that Chevy builds Corvettes to sell their other vehicles. I believe the industry refers to it as a "halo vehicle".

I doubt speed will be neutered, at least around here.

 

[Torrid]

Comparing road use vehicles drag race time is not realistic, most people couldn't care less. China is already looking at regulating 0-60 times and Europe and the US will not be far behind, once they claim it is a safety issue you can etch that in stone.
I see around here more cities and towns have a city wide 25mph limit and they are using speed cameras to enforce it. Sooner than later the performance of electric motors and high powered ice engine vehicles will be neutered.

https://insideevs.com/news/778775/china-ev-60-mph-seconds/

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-speed-limits

For those that do care a lot it's nearly the only thing that matters. Someone just looking for transportation isn't buying a 6 figure sports sedan. These are two very separate conversations and the limiting of power because someone lacks self control when necessary and ruins it for the rest of the population.

I like a vehicle that can cover every want and need I have. I don't feel the need to blast to 60 in 3.5 seconds every time the light goes green. I'd hope others would exercise the same restraint.

 

[Trav]

It is coming like it or not, it is not ruining anything for anyone.

 

[Torrid]

It is coming like it or not, it is not ruining anything for anyone.

I'm sure they want to write the tickets. China might do this but the US lives for gross excess performance. Look how stupid the performance market is these days.

 

[UncleDave]

What about a used Caddy Escalde-V?

Thats a killer ride for sure.
Can you trust a used 6.2?

 

[jghall00]

Thats a killer ride for sure.
Can you trust a used 6.2?

These days even the new ones can't be trusted.

 

[Trav]

I'm sure they want to write the tickets. China might do this but the US lives for gross excess performance. Look how stupid the performance market is these days.

All Tesla and most newer cars have GPS, if it shows the car is on a track of some sort then it is no big deal to unlock the power otherwise I can see limiting top speed and 0-60 time. Are you saying you want unlimited power and speed for public roads? That is irresponsible.