LSPI and GF6's

[EMPIRE]

If the OEM manual and/or idiot labels call for "SN" or "SN Plus", does that mean you are stuck to GF6's?
What if unit calls for 0w20 SN but you use a GF5 0w20, is there now concern for an LSPI issue? A lot of the move to GF6's appear to be CAFE driven, but it's not clear to me if the need for SN has anything to do with LSPI or not. How would a vehicle owner know?

 

[PimTac]

Why start another thread on the same subject?

 

[slacktide_bitog]

SN/SN+ = GF5
SP = GF6

Also, no car on the road requires GF6/SP because it just came out 3 months ago. 2021 cars that are being made now, or will be made starting this fall, may require SP/GF6. The new cars will be too new to need an oil change this year, or will get their first oil change at the dealer. Therefore, nobody will need to buy SP/GF6 oil for at least another 6 months.

 

[EMPIRE]

SN/SN+ = GF5
SP = GF6

Also, no car on the road requires GF6/SP because it just came out 3 months ago. 2021 cars that are being made now, or will be made starting this fall, may require SP/GF6. The new cars will be too new to need an oil change this year, or will get their first oil change at the dealer. Therefore, nobody will need to buy SP/GF6 oil for at least another 6 months.

TY for the correction.
Ah, yes, a bit of a mix with oil types these days.

Just for as example, Toyota A25A-FKS calls for 0w16 or 0w20 SN/RC, not SN+. So it seems the call for w16 or w20 for this engine has no concern for LSPI.

A little more confusing is this. On Valvoline website it says

While API has not begun granting licenses for “SN PLUS” products yet, Valvoline is leading the industry with a line of passenger car engine oils that exceed the LSPI protection requirements of this new classification.

The 5qt jug I have here in from of is labeled SN/SN Plus. So Valvoline didn't get officially licensed, but their testing shows the oil meets SN+ ??

I just wondering if using a SN in a SN+ spec'd vehicle poses an issue? I know it's probably hard to find a SN synth that does not meet SN+ LSPI requirement.

Are there any engines that spec SN+ as min service level? If not then are we just going to see a jump from GF5 SN to say GF6B SP+? If so then what was SN+ for?

 

[OilReport99]

Why start another thread on the same subject?

Has it occurred to you that he is trolling the board?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Why start another thread on the same subject?

A- Cumulative effects of "nucular" radiation poisoning
B- Trolling

Personally I think closer to b

 

[PimTac]

Has it occurred to you that he is trolling the board?

I think that is obvious.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If the OEM manual and/or idiot labels call for "SN" or "SN Plus", does that mean you are stuck to GF6's?
What if unit calls for 0w20 SN but you use a GF5 0w20, is there now concern for an LSPI issue? A lot of the move to GF6's appear to be CAFE driven, but it's not clear to me if the need for SN has anything to do with LSPI or not. How would a vehicle owner know?

ILSAC GF-6 SP will cover the LSPI concerns.

What you need to know about ILSAC GF-6

Learn everything you need to know about the International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee’s (ILSAC) new motor oil specification, GF-6, coming to market in April 2020. The new specification is designed to achieve greater fuel economy and provide increased protection against...

www.pennzoil.com

"API will introduce a new API service category, “SP,” which will be derived from ILSAC GF-6 and licensed to motor oils for gasoline engines. While API SP will be backwards-compatible to previous API service categories, motor oils will still be able to be licensed as meeting the API SN PLUS, SN, SM, SL or SJ categories."


"The ILSAC GF-6 standard was designed to address the impact of LSPI in downsized TGDI engines."

 

[ZeeOSix]

... but it's not clear to me if the need for SN has anything to do with LSPI or not. How would a vehicle owner know?

Plan "SN" not for LSPI ... "SN Plus" for LSPI. And sounds like GF-6 SP will all be LSPI formulated, don't expect a "SP Plus".

The manual (or the manufacture's updated website) would call out the need for an SN Plus or the new ILSAC GF-6 SP which will cover the SN Plus LSPI concerns.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Has it occurred to you that he is trolling the board?

That, and/or he's too lazy to Google stuff and find the answer in 30 seconds.

 

[kstanf150]

any of you guys subscribe to

engine labs.com

????

Good article on their web page about this right now

 

[EMPIRE]

Plan "SN" not for LSPI ... "SN Plus" for LSPI. And sounds like GF-6 SP will all be LSPI formulated, don't expect a "SP Plus".

The manual (or the manufacture's updated website) would call out the need for an SN Plus or the new ILSAC GF-6 SP which will cover the SN Plus LSPI concerns.

What's the diff with GF6B that it is not backwards compatible? GF6B appears to be a spec that will only work in engines spec'd for it, and, no other type of oil could be used in the engine, thus the end user is stuck buying GF6B oils, and as of now, only 0w16 is approved for the GF6 category.

Are there any vehicles that call for SN+ ?

 

[ZeeOSix]

What's the diff with GF6B that it is not backwards compatible? GF6B appears to be a spec that will only work in engines spec'd for it, and, no other type of oil could be used in the engine, thus the end user is stuck buying GF6B oils, and as of now, only 0w16 is approved for the GF6 category.

Are there any vehicles that call for SN+ ?

Lots of modern turboed engines (mabye some high compression NA engines too) call for SN+ ... because of LSPI.

They probably don't want people using 0W-16 in anything except what calls specifically for 0W-16, so they made it a specific spec -- GF-6B.

What you need to know about ILSAC GF-6

Learn everything you need to know about the International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee’s (ILSAC) new motor oil specification, GF-6, coming to market in April 2020. The new specification is designed to achieve greater fuel economy and provide increased protection against...

www.pennzoil.com

"Much like the current American Petroleum Institute (API) specifications for heavy-duty engine oils (CK-4/FA-4),GF-6 will be split into two sub-categories. The distinction between the two is as follows:

GF-6A: Backward-compatible standard for SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30, but not SAE 0W-16. This standard will continue to utilize the starburst symbol for licensing.

GF-6B: New standard for SAE 0W-16 ONLY, developed to meet the needs of specific modern engines. This standard will not be backward-compatible to previous categories and will have a new licensing symbol for bottles."

 

[EMPIRE]

They probably don't want people using 0W-16 in anything except what calls specifically for 0W-16, so they made it a specific spec -- GF-6B.

But only for engines that required GF6B. Certainly 0w16's are available in GF5 service category currently. This is where I think end users are gonna get confused. A GF5 SN+ 0w16 has a starburst or service wheel, while a GF6B SP 0w16 will carry a shield. Although api.org says after May 1 2021 the Starburst is not available for use for GF5 oils. Maybe the bottle like freon's are, a set of pastel colored bottles, like a all bright pink bottle for "GF6B" and bright sky blue for "GF6A".

What does api.org mean by this?

Oil marketers may now license oils meeting ILSAC GF-6A as ILSAC GF-5 and API SN, GF-6B as API SN and API SP as API SN.

And more confusing, api states SP's are backward compatible with SN's? Does that infer GF6A's are SP's but GF6B's are not?

https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/API_V2_013120.mp4?la=en

When they say "bkwrd compatible" do they mean in chemistry, or in service, or both?

 

[ZeeOSix]

But only for engines that required GF6B. Certainly 0w16's are available in GF5 service category currently. This is where I think end users are gonna get confused. A GF5 SN+ 0w16 has a starburst or service wheel, while a GF6B SP 0w16 will carry a shield. Although api.org says after May 1 2021 the Starburst is not available for use for GF5 oils.

What does api.org mean by this?

GF-6 is back compatible to GF-5 ... just like every time a new "Sx rating" comes out it's back compatible. Any engine calling out GF-5 can use GF-6 ... the only wrinkle is that cars calling for 0W-16 need to use GF-6B, but that is the only viscosity that carries that spec, so if you buy GF-6 in 0W-16 you automatically get GF-6B. Read the spec sheets carefully (Valvoline example from the other thread for example, link below), GF-6B only shows an "X" in the 0W-16 column.

Where can i find API SP?

The bulk tank at the Ford Dealer.

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[EMPIRE]

GF-6 is back compatible to GF-5 ... just like every time a new "Sx rating" comes out it's back compatible. Any engine calling out GF-5 can use GF-6 ... the only wrinkle is that cars calling for 0W-16 need to use GF-6B, but that is the only viscosity that carries that spec, so if you buy GF-6 in 0W-16 you automatically get GF-6B. Read the spec sheets carefully (Valvoline example from the other thread for example, link below), GF-6B only shows an "X" in the 0W-16 column.

Why is oil such a mystery to you?

Where can i find API SP?

The bulk tank at the Ford Dealer.

www.bobistheoilguy.com

Plenty of jugs out there of 0w16 that are not GF6B's. Valvoline jugs of 0w16 that only say SN SN+
I didn't take it that all 0w16's have to be GF6B's, I take the ILSAC & API words to mean "as of now, GF6B only has 0w16 grade in it".
And yep, the 0w16 AFE Valvoline synth at wallsmart did say "GF6B".

My vehicle calls for 0w16 SN. So that means it does not require 0w16 GF6B, but can use any 0w16 in GF5 SN or GF6A SN?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Plenty of jugs out there of 0w16 that are not GF6B's. Valvoline jugs of 0w16 that only say SN SN+

I didn't take it that all 0w16's have to be GF6B's, I take the ILSAC & API words to mean "as of now, GF6B only has 0w16 grade in it".
And yep, the 0w16 AFE Valvoline synth at wallsmart did say "GF6B".

My vehicle calls for 0w16 SN. So that means it does not require 0w16 GF6B, but can use any 0w16 in GF5 SN or GF6A SN?

So you could use any of SN, SN Plus or API SP (GF-6B since that makes it 0W-16 only) ... all will be fine. GF-6 is supposed to have better wear performance than GF-5, so why not go for it?

If you go to your vehicle manufacturer's website they might show an updated OM that shows the undated oil specs. Happens all the time. Just go buy some Valvoline Advacnced full synthetic in 0W-16 and stop torturing yourself, lol.

 

[Gene K]

Some A3/B4 like M1 ESP 5W-30 (3.5+ HTHS) are SN or SN+. So are some HDEO like Delo 400 XSP.

SN does not have an LSPI component. That stated some oils were already formulated with LSPI in mind. M1 claims to have met SN+ requirements since 2010. They also claim their existing formulation met SP GF-6.


GF-6 = SP
GF-5 = SN/SN+

LSPI is only a concern if you have a TGDI. If you have a normally aspirated GDI it's a non-issue.

 

[PimTac]

.

It has already been mentioned but the newer oils can handle LSPI better. I think the emphasis on SP was timing chain wear among other things.

 

[EMPIRE]

So you could use any of SN, SN Plus or API SP (GF-6B since that makes it 0W-16 only) ... all will be fine. GF-6 is supposed to have better wear performance than GF-5, so why not go for it?

If you go to your vehicle manufacturer's website they might show an updated OM that shows the undated oil specs. Happens all the time. Just go buy some Valvoline Advacnced full synthetic in 0W-16 and stop torturing yourself, lol.

Not all jugs labeled "0w16" are GF6-B's, at least not by the words or symbols on the jug.