LSjr Tests VOA of 20 yr old Valvoline & 40 yr old Mobil 1 Oil. HPL tests Anti-Foam in Gear Oil.

[Pablo]

It is not my purview to moderate technical points.

I rely on experienced people, like you, to make them. Peer review and discussion is both powerful and the core of this site.

I simply moderate behavior. I don’t like veiled posts, or innuendo.
And I really don’t like bashing.

I would rather someone with your experience make the detailed technical point from which we all benefit.

So, thank you for explaining that. I appreciate it.

I wasn't expecting or asking for moderation. Sorry if that is how it came out.

I was indeed looking for more critical review. Not attacks. Technical discussion. Not cheer-leading.

I think Speed is valid in one solid respect. There is a reason oil bottlers put a 2-3-4-5 year shelf life on oil. It can and does get old, oxidized, etc. I have no problem using 2-3 year old oil stored in a cool dry place. Beyond that, it's old oil.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Not an answer, move along.

A more technical answer. The oil is dumped into a collection tank and sent to a refiner where it will be re-refined. The oil is essentially no different than used oil. Water, high oxidation (65), etc. etc.

 

[The Lube Guy]

The HPL gear oil not foaming at all was truly impressive. That is some good stuff right there!

 

[Passport1]

I have some 0W-20 Mobil 1 Annual Protection purchased a couple of years ago on clearance. Been stored in the garage. I think, if I decipher the code correctly, the oil is about six years old.
Now I'm conflicted about using it.

 

[TiGeo]

All over the BITOG-sphere oil hoarders are sweating bullets this morning.

 

[Glenda W.]

I figured the sharper than me guys (most folks here) would be all over this.


OK just for a second read and follow..........

Assume the old oil from 1990 never aged. Preserved perfectly in time. Run an oxidation test. Number is 20 (just made that up for example)

Now run a test on the oil, with same name in 2024. Run an oxidation test. Number is 10. (just made that up for example)

We can really conclude nothing solid, other than yes the numbers ARE different. Why would this be?

The oxidation number has just as much to do with the initial oil constituents than it does with aging. A high ester oil will have a high oxidation number. Oxidation tests are basically only useful to compare the EXACT same virgin oil, NEW then USED, to see delta oxidation.

This is not the first time this showboat has been wrong. We are wise here not to follow him, IMHO. BITOG should gently point out Lake Speed's inaccuracies.

Agree 100%. Without a 20 year old voa to compare to we can’t jump to any conclusions.

*entertainment purposes only

 

[dnewton3]

I used to hoard, but haven't for some time now.
Typically today, I just get my OCI planned a few weeks ahead of time, buy the stuff, and do the change when it is convenient.

I would be comfortable with a sealed oil container up to 5 years.
I would be comfortable with an opened container for a few years.
Nothing past that.

Regarding the HPL performance in anti-foam; that's totally what I expected. I've been in their lab a few times and seen their testing first hand. Their products are rarely equaled but by only the most excellent of competitors. I doubt there is a product that exceeds theirs.

 

[Samurai1225]

Wins BITOG big word of the day contest. Had to look it up.

Parsimonious is certainly a big word, but I believe it means stingy or frugal so I'm not sure it was used in the proper context.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Parsimonious is certainly a big word, but I believe it means stingy or frugal so I'm not sure it was used in the proper context.

 

[Pablo]

Don’t make me have to take you to the Project Farm shed

I need to just take these things lighter.

I think my BP got elevated!

 

[OVERKILL]

Water causes oxidation. Take the M1 in the can as an example. We know it has no ester because M1 wasn't using it at the time.

The degree of oxidation is irrelevant because the oxidation number is on the high side and there's water in the oil. End of story.

I disagree here, Mobil was certainly using esters in the 1980's (assuming the oil is SF as labelled, it was blended in 1980 or later) and my understanding from Tom was that the early Mobil 1 base oil blend was effectively just PAO and esters up until Tri-Syn emerged on the scene, at which point they added AN's. This is all long before they started adding Group III.

So, if we look at a Redline VOA, which is effectively the same formulation approach, we see virgin oxidation of close to 100, and some oils, higher than 100. So it's entirely plausible that we are just seeing the signature of considerable ester content with this particular oil.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

I disagree here, Mobil was certainly using esters in the 1980's (assuming the oil is SF as labelled, it was blended in 1980 or later) and my understanding from Tom was that the early Mobil 1 base oil blend was effectively just PAO and esters up until Tri-Syn emerged on the scene, at which point they added AN's. This is all long before they started adding Group III.

So, if we look at a Redline VOA, which is effectively the same formulation approach, we see virgin oxidation of close to 100, and some oils, higher than 100. So it's entirely plausible that we are just seeing the signature of considerable ester content with this particular oil.

What about the Valvoline?

 

[OVERKILL]

What about the Valvoline?

Not sure with the Valvoline, it said Synpower, but it was also their racing oil, so then it's quite possible it had some in there too for seal compatibility and perhaps some added performance.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I disagree here, Mobil was certainly using esters in the 1980's (assuming the oil is SF as labelled, it was blended in 1980 or later) and my understanding from Tom was that the early Mobil 1 base oil blend was effectively just PAO and esters up until Tri-Syn emerged on the scene, at which point they added AN's. This is all long before they started adding Group III.

So, if we look at a Redline VOA, which is effectively the same formulation approach, we see virgin oxidation of close to 100, and some oils, higher than 100. So it's entirely plausible that we are just seeing the signature of considerable ester content with this particular oil.

Sure but that's RL not circa 2003 Valvoline SynPower. The oxidation of the Valvoline samples was around 65. In any case there's water in the oil and the anti-foaming agent was no longer performing so I'm unable to find the relevance of debating whether the oxidation number is bad or good due to a lack of the VOA.

IIRC LS said, in the first video of this series, that the can of M1 was from the 1970s and therefore pre-dated their use of esters. Of course if someone is really interested they can ask him in the YT comments.

 

[OVERKILL]

IIRC LS said, in the first video of this series, that the can of M1 was from the 1970s which pre-dated their use of esters. Of course if someone is really interested they can ask him in the YT comments.

His VOA shows the oil labelled as SF, which appeared in 1980.

And no, apparently Mobil 1, from the get-go, was PAO/Ester until Tri-Syn happened. That was from TomNJ, who I believe supplied the esters at the time through Hatco, so he'd know. They may not have had the balance right in the first few years though, based on the claims of it causing leaks (possibly due to PAO seal shrink, but that's just speculation on my part).

On the Valvoline, that's Synpower Racing Oil, it could very well have some ester in it as well, like 300V for example. Yes, the water should still condemn it, my point is that we don't know what virgin oxidation is for any of these oils and given the known impact ester content has on this, claims that this is a reliable metric are dubious at best.

Another data point: The gear oil had an oxidation figure of only 6.1, so if this was true oxidation, why was it exempt?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

His VOA shows the oil labelled as SF, which appeared in 1980.

And no, apparently Mobil 1, from the get-go, was PAO/Ester until Tri-Syn happened. That was from TomNJ, who I believe supplied the esters at the time through Hatco, so he'd know. They may not have had the balance right in the first few years though, based on the claims of it causing leaks (possibly due to PAO seal shrink, but that's just speculation on my part).

On the Valvoline, that's Synpower Racing Oil, it could very well have some ester in it as well, like 300V for example. Yes, the water should still condemn it, my point is that we don't know what virgin oxidation is for any of these oils and given the known impact ester content has on this, claims that this is a reliable metric are dubious at best.

Another data point: The gear oil had an oxidation figure of only 6.1, so if this was true oxidation, why was it exempt?

Okay so he misspoke with his first video.

 

[OVERKILL]

Okay so he misspoke with his first video.

In this video he makes it pretty clear that he doesn't know the age of it and was guessing that it might be up to 50 years old. It's not quite that old, assuming that it is in fact SF, the oldest it could be would be 44.

 

[TiGeo]

All kind of good comments/responses by LSJ over on the video comments....I wonder if he is here somewhere?

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

I have not had a chance to watch the video in his entirety. However, I did think he mentioned some sort of disclaimer that in the absence of the reference data this is worth considering I think we all understand it is a generalization not a hard set of numbers we did look at, these materials on FTIR and as of course, everyone knows oxidation in the Esther report in the same region in overlaying current Esther on the instrument did not yield a conclusive yes or no about the ester content.

Overall, Lake spent a lot of time and energy and effort to do these things and after working with him I can tell you he is not a slouch. He does know what he’s doing. The good news is is 20 times more flamboyant than I would ever be, which makes him a great candidate to do these videos, and not myself.

There will be more videos coming as Bryce has hinted, and I think our lab and lakes videos will be a good combination and helpful for people for time to come.

In a nice thing to see, although we already know it our gear oils do not foam

David

 

[TiGeo]

I have not had a chance to watch the video in his entirety. However, I did think he mentioned some sort of disclaimer that in the absence of the reference data this is worth considering I think we all understand it is a generalization not a hard set of numbers we did look at, these materials on FTIR and as of course, everyone knows oxidation in the Esther report in the same region in overlaying current Esther on the instrument did not yield a conclusive yes or no about the ester content.

Overall, Lake spent a lot of time and energy and effort to do these things and after working with him I can tell you he is not a slouch. He does know what he’s doing. The good news is is 20 times more flamboyant than I would ever be, which makes him a great candidate to do these videos, and not myself.

There will be more videos coming as Bryce has hinted, and I think our lab and lakes videos will be a good combination and helpful for people for time to come.

In a nice thing to see, although we already know it our gear oils do not foam

David

I'm definatley getting your gear oil next bevel box/r. diff change. I liked the videos...folks here are WAY too serious about this stuff.