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Thank you for your insight.
Can you recommend some decent HDEOs that can be found in stores?
LSjr Tests VOA of 20 yr old Valvoline & 40 yr old Mobil 1 Oil. HPL tests Anti-Foam in Gear Oil.
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Can you recommend some decent HDEOs that can be found in stores?
I am retired 17 years, so I don't know who is their current supplier. Esters do not break down or dissolve carbon deposits, but highly polar esters can slowly dissolve some types of deposits. Their main cleanliness benefit is preventing deposits by dissolving or suspending the precursors to deposits such as oxidation by-products. This is especially evident in thin film, high temperature environments that create coking and is one of the reasons POEs are used exclusively in jet engine oils.
Thanks Tom for pointing this out. Red Line has told me on two occassions that their oil will not clean deposits, but run clean.
What's interesting to me is the Valvoline Patent for their Premium Blue Restore. That oil is designed to clean existing deposits and I believe is PAO/V (POE). Are there different POE's that can clean deposits? Valvoline Premium Blue but with a base oil composed of 62.5% POE, 25.0% PAO, and 12.5% AN. It's meant to be used for a single 5,000-mile OCI every 100,000 miles in HDEO engines to clean the piston-ring carbon deposits as maintenance to restore horsepower and fuel economy.
LUBRICANT FOR PREVENTING AND REMOVING CARBON DEPOSITS IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES - VALVOLINE LICENSING AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, LLC
<div p-id="p-0001">A lubricant formulation which is effective to remove or prevent carbon deposits in internal combustion engines has a solvency as defined by aniline point from about 20 to about 115,
www.freepatentsonline.com
"The lubricant formulation can be formed from a blend of Group III, IV and V lubricants, in particularly polyalphaolefins, alkylated naphthalenes and polar Group V base stocks such as polyol esters. The carbon deposits can be removed from the engine piston by simply running the engine with the lubricant for one required cycle, or can be used continuously in the engine to prevent buildup."
King Industries has some information they put out about how AN's can clean existing deposits. This may be the base oil in HPL that does the heavy deposit cleaning.
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It appears to me that Dr. Rudnick, who created Mobil 1 Tri synthetic, was ahead of his time.
"In one embodiment according to the present invention, the lubricant formulation includes an ester-based oil, an alkylated naphthalene and a PAO. The PAO provides lubricity and oxidative stability, but contributes little if any solvency. Group III base oils can be used in place of the PAO. The alkylated naphthalene provides oxidative stability, contributes to solvency and contributes to the requisite viscosity. Preferably polyol esters improve the solvency of the base oil mixture. These esters, together, with the alkylated naphthalene, would be added in amounts effective to establish the solvency with the aniline point at between 20 and 115 and preferably between 50 and 95."
"In one embodiment according to the present invention, the lubricant formulation includes an ester-based oil, an alkylated naphthalene and a PAO. The PAO provides lubricity and oxidative stability, but contributes little if any solvency. Group III base oils can be used in place of the PAO. The alkylated naphthalene provides oxidative stability, contributes to solvency and contributes to the requisite viscosity. Preferably polyol esters improve the solvency of the base oil mixture. These esters, together, with the alkylated naphthalene, would be added in amounts effective to establish the solvency with the aniline point at between 20 and 115 and preferably between 50 and 95."
I can tell you there is nothing better than working with Dr Rudnick. Although it creates a lot of pressure between your ears trying to keep up. And lastly you will never find a better mentor.
David
David
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Thank you for that insight.
Where is this quote from?
It's pretty cool to see how the final mix works better than just the parts on their own. Really shows how Dr. Rudnick nailed it by figuring out the right combo to get such awesome results.
There are deposits and there are deposits. The original question from Invisible was what esters can break down carbon deposits and dissolve them. Elemental carbon is not soluble, but some resins and lacquers that hold the carbon deposits in place could be dissolved or loosened by polar ingredients which could cause the deposits to come off and be caught by the filter. So the carbon containing deposits may be removed but the carbon itself is not broken down or dissolved.Thanks Tom for pointing this out. Red Line has told me on two occassions that their oil will not clean deposits, but run clean.
What's interesting to me is the Valvoline Patent for their Premium Blue Restore. That oil is designed to clean existing deposits and I believe is PAO/V (POE). Are there different POE's that can clean deposits? Valvoline Premium Blue but with a base oil composed of 62.5% POE, 25.0% PAO, and 12.5% AN. It's meant to be used for a single 5,000-mile OCI every 100,000 miles in HDEO engines to clean the piston-ring carbon deposits as maintenance to restore horsepower and fuel economy.
LUBRICANT FOR PREVENTING AND REMOVING CARBON DEPOSITS IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES - VALVOLINE LICENSING AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, LLC
<div p-id="p-0001">A lubricant formulation which is effective to remove or prevent carbon deposits in internal combustion engines has a solvency as defined by aniline point from about 20 to about 115,
"The lubricant formulation can be formed from a blend of Group III, IV and V lubricants, in particularly polyalphaolefins, alkylated naphthalenes and polar Group V base stocks such as polyol esters. The carbon deposits can be removed from the engine piston by simply running the engine with the lubricant for one required cycle, or can be used continuously in the engine to prevent buildup."
The esters mentioned in the patent you quoted are larger molecules with high lubricity but relatively low polarity, thus allowing much higher doses than typical for motor oils with less chance of adverse effects on seals and wear. I can see that these high doses of esters & ANs could loosen or dissolve some types of deposits over time.
This is likely why WWillson saw bits and pieces of carbon in his filter for a long length of time in his Durango.
Where is this quote from?
It's pretty cool to see how the final mix works better than just the parts on their own. Really shows how Dr. Rudnick nailed it by figuring out the right combo to get such awesome results.
LUBRICANT FOR PREVENTING AND REMOVING CARBON DEPOSITS IN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES - VALVOLINE LICENSING AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, LLC
<div p-id="p-0001">A lubricant formulation which is effective to remove or prevent carbon deposits in internal combustion engines has a solvency as defined by aniline point from about 20 to about 115,
www.freepatentsonline.com
That explains Mobil 1 running through my 76 Duster with the slant six in the 70’s. I bought it new and it had about 20k miles on it when I tried that new Mobil 1. It went through it pretty quickly. I figured it was blowing by the rings as I had no leaks.
I tend to avoid recommending brands online anymore. I just hate on things really.
My fleet uses Kendall and Citgo products. That being said, we are the largest marketers in the U.S. of those brands. So, I have some conflicts of interest there.
I just don’t like Rotella. Off the shelf, I’d probably pick Chevron Delo product line. As it would be the easiest to find probably. And I think it’s better than Delvac personally. (I do not sell Chevron products, so no conflict of interest.)
Just to clarify, water does not oxidize an ester but can hydrolyze the ester, that is, reverse the esterification reaction producing alcohol and acid. That said, it should be noted that it takes severe conditions to make a POE, like reaction temperatures of 220°C to 250°C, and likewise takes severe conditions to reverse the reaction, like lots of water and high temperatures. Trace amounts of water at room temperature will make the hydrolysis reaction very very slow. The amount of hydrolysis, if any, can be measured by gas chromatography.
Allowing that 40 years could cause some minor reversal of the ester, even with the mild conditions of low water content and ambient temperatures, that would not increase the oxidation value. The FTIR oxidation test measures the amount of C=O bonds in the oil, which is a sign of oxidation in a hydrocarbon oil, but not an ester. Esters have C=O bonds in their structure, which is why oils that contain esters show a higher oxidation result in this test. If the ester hydrolyzes back into an acid and an alcohol, the total amount of C=O bonds does not change because the C=O bond remains on the acid.
Q: When these oils were poured from their sealed containers they were very dark in color. My interpretation was that this darker color was oxidation from water which diffused through the walls of the container over the 20 yrs in storage. What would cause the oil to change to this dark brown color and what impact would water have on the oil over the 20 yr period?
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Isn’t this just whether the test detects the presence of oxygen or not? Like, oxygen can be present within the water molecules without anything in the mixture having been oxidized in a reaction.
The FTIR oxidation test measures the presence of C=O bonds, not all oxygen.
We don't know what the color was at the time of manufacture, so we can't say how much they darkened. Oils did tend to be darker in the past than today. Some darkening from oxidation is possible from air ingress as the bottles breath with temperature change, but given that these bottles were sealed and the oils contained anti-oxidants I wouldn't expect much. And this does not apply to Mobil 1 in a hermetically sealed steel can - the oxidation numbers there are likely due to the ester content.
Regarding water, they did not run a water content so we don't know how much water was in the oil. I would not expect water to affect the color, and should not degrade the additives very much given the mild conditions, but can't say for sure because we don't know the composition of the oils.
My problem with this video is that they are comparing very old oils of unknown composition with new oils of unknown composition using visual and simple oil analysis, and then speculating on the cause of observed differences. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from what they presented.
Funny you mention M1. It was a couple of shades lighter than the Valvoline.
It also used water white base oils.
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