Low Friction Modifiers: Something to worry about?

[BlazerLT]

Now seeing I was reading about the Esso XD3 0w30 I am using and it was said that it is low in friction modifiers and therefore doesn't have the starburst.

What possible problems can or may be occuring when using an oil such as this in a gasoline engine?

 

[55Test]

Small, insignifigant loss of fuel economy perhaps? That's about the only downside of a non-starburst oil.

 

[Blue99]

Friction modifiers are part of the GF-4 fuel economy game and are typically necessary for the test oils to beat the PAO reference oil in the Sequence VIB fuel economy test.

One question has to be longevity as I suspect that normally, friction modifiers wear out before the end of the OCI is reached.

 

[Ron AKA]

Isn't it more likely that it is high in ZDDP (to meet the diesel requirements) and thus can't achieve the Starburst because it is over the 0.08% limit for phosphorous?

 

[bruce381]

ZDDP has really nothing to do with the starbust it is viscosity and FM properties.

bruce

 

[BlazerLT]

What are the components that would be deemed a friction modifier?

Moly? or is it the base oil?

 

[Ron AKA]

Quote:

---

ZDDP has really nothing to do with the starbust it is viscosity and FM properties. bruce

---

Bruce correct me if I'm wrong (again

), but my understanding of the Starburst is that it was API's reluctant agreement to comply with GF-4?

Or is it a little more in that too much phosphorous puts you offside with SM and GF-4, and that you have to claim SL, which in turn means no GF-4 and no Sunburst?

And to follow that, if you comply with phosphorous, but can't meet GF-4 for fuel mileage, you can qualify to SM, but no GF-4 and no Sunburst?

Which category is XD-3 in? I think it is an SL, and thus could be offside for both mileage and phosphorous?

 

[bruce381]

starburst was out back at ? SG or so way before SM starburst oil typically is blended to low end vis with a FM like .50-1.0% GMO and can only be I think 0/20, 5/20, 5/30 10/30 I think maybe wrong (most likey I am)

Then again I may have forgoten the whole deal.

 

[Blue99]

I don't think Bruce will be ofended so I will translate/parahrase what he is posting:

The API starburst energy conserving rating has been around since the API SG service grade, which applies to 1989 year cars & newer.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf

If phosphorous was an issue, the term "emissions systems" would be included in the explanation for the Starburst level.

The Starburst energy conserving rating is based on a fuel economy test, of which the current Sequence VIB is a requirement for the ILSAC GF-4 rating.

Currently, the Sequence VIB has minimum requirements for the following grades:

0W-20 and 5W-20
0W-30 and 5W-30
10W-30 and all other viscosity grades not listed above.

Note - A High-Mileage 5W-30 or 10W-30 formulation or a 10W-40 is going to have trouble beating the reference PAO test oil by approximately 1% in fuel economy. Hence, these viscosity grades typically are not "API Starburst".

 

[Ron AKA]

I think we went round and round on this issue before. I concluded that the only way a mfg can use the Starburst on a current product is to meet GF-4 which has both the phosphorous limit and the mileage target. No GF-4 no Starburst.

I believe XD-3 is sold as a SL/CF-4 with no Starburst. As such it can still have the higher level of ZDDP, with phosporous at 0.11% or so compared to the 0.08 limit for GF-4.

 

[bruce381]

What blue 99 said.

Ron you are correct, but ZDDP never was had anything to do with the starburst BUT yes to get it now in a SM you are limited on the ZDDP but in the past the limit was higher.

 

[bruce381]

Quote:

---

What are the components that would be deemed a friction modifier?

Moly? or is it the base oil?

---

moly
boron
ester

 

[Ron AKA]

Quote:

---

Ron you are correct, but ZDDP never was had anything to do with the starburst BUT yes to get it now in a SM you are limited on the ZDDP but in the past the limit was higher.

---

If that is correct then just based on the label information we don't know for sure that XD-3 is low on friction modifiers. All we know it is not GF-4. This means it could be phosphorous, high HTHS, lack of friction modifiers, or all of the above that keeps it from gaining GF-4.

 

[bruce381]

Sometimes you need a physic to figure out whats in the bottle and then you will never know.

Formulas are "adjusted" all the time maybe they have not got to this one yet or the marketing guys have not made up new labels?
bruce

 

[Safetyfast]

I'm a bit confused by the statements that SM requires the low ZDDP amounts. My Valvoline VR1 says it's SM, but the zinc level is around 1300ppm

 

[bruce381]

made wrong, packed wrong, labeled wrong or lab is wrong Phos cap for SM is 800ppm.
bruce

 

[unDummy]

Actually from what I remember, can't find the .pdf, the current additive levels allowed for GF-4 oils and SM oils are different. You can have an oil with either, neither, or both specs. It also confusing since some mention the Zn limit, other links mention the P limit. The limits are also weight dependent. The 40 and 50wt oils don't have limits(?). To make it even more confusing, if the diesel spec precedes the gas spec(hint CI4 SM and not SM CI4), the SM gasoline limits are ignored and the HDEO specs override.
The Valvoline VR-1 doesn't mention energy conserving or GF-4 anywhere on their data sheet. This could be the loophole in the SM specs that Valvoline is using. Notice that the 10w30 is NOT SM, but all others weights are SM(but its a nil meaningless spec on thick oils and straight weights).
http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf

To aid in the loophole confusion:
An 'SM CI4' oil has different limits then a 'CI4 SM' oil.
Energy conserving may or may not be on the label with its own requirements.
The GF4(or whatever) specs may or may not be on the label.
Oil weight for the lower additive levels are typically for the multiweight SAE 20(0w20 5w20) and 30(0w30, 5w30, 10w30) grades. Single grades and the thicker 40, 50, or 60, are exempt(more or less) from the limits.

Read your bottles carefully. It'll either be missing some specs, be a non-applicable weight, or have the spec labelling in a specific order, or have specs that do NOT apply.

My glass of water meets the API SM additive level spec. Try it in your engine