Looking for some "bulletproof" brake rotors

[benjamming]

I could see that explanation for say a Honda S2000 or maybe a Porsche Cayman, but the complete line of Ferrari 'regular' cars made me question it. Not that Ferrari is above doing whatever it takes to make money, but more along the lines of what the top end manufacturers do, others follow. Sorta like, well it's that way on a Ferrari so it must be the best.

 

[bluemax1]

Ferrari are masters of marketing. They make sure that they limit production of their cars so they sell every car they make. They produce a great product, but they also know how to market it and give folks what they want, or make folks want what they have.

Every forum that I try to enlighten inevitably has someone who jumps in with the, "but Ferrari does it" or "but Porsche has them" or "Brembo sells the most brakes in the world and they have them" etc.

Once again, if you're asking about pure performance, then look closest at where no-holds barred pure performance is king. Where tenths of a second can mean the difference between the top step of the podium and being the first loser. Look at racing. To be more specific, since we're discussing cast iron rotors, look ONLY at racing series mandating cast iron rotors (yes, I've been through this in another forum with some genius who decided to start arguing about carbon or ceramic brakes etc.). Do you REALLY think that race teams wouldn't use crossdrilled rotors if there was an advantage to be had? And I'm not talking about dragracing where you only need to use your brakes once every hour or so. I mean roadracing, courses like Road America, Infineon/Laguna Seca, VIR etc. I began amateur racing back in the 80's.

If you don't race (and if you're wondering about crossdrilled rotors, it's safe to say you don't) obviously it would be best if you could finagle your way into the paddocks to check out the race cars firsthand (Touring class, GT, Champ, Nascar, whatever), and maybe get to chat with the folks (not during a race obviously). These days though, you could probably find info on google. Once again, NO professional race teams using cast iron brake rotors have crossdrilled rotors. Not only do they offer poorer consistency in braking performance and reduced thermal capacity and thus endurance for repeated hard braking, they are also much more likely to crack and frag when racing.

If you drive like Miss Daisy is in your passenger seat, use whatever oil you wish, drum brakes will work just fine and so will 175/70/15 $30 tires. If you drive hard and performance is the goal (as in someone asking for "bulletproof" brake rotors), then crossdrilling is not the way to go.


Max

 

[sprintman]

I need new front rotors for my street turbo Mazda. What would you recommend?

 

[bluemax1]

http://www.wilwood.com/Centers/Information/question_answer/07.asp
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-Rotors/006-ULD/index.asp
http://flashoffroad.com/Maintenance/Brakes/BrakeRotors.html

just off a quick google search

 

[bluemax1]

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I need new front rotors for my street turbo Mazda. What would you recommend?

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Turbo Mazda? RX-7? Try tirerack to see if they have DBA 4000 rotors for your application.


Max

 

[benjamming]

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Every forum that I try to enlighten inevitably has someone who jumps in with the, "but Ferrari does it" or "but Porsche has them" or "Brembo sells the most brakes in the world and they have them" etc.

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I guess it's something about blindly believing whatever someone is saying without the poster being bothered by questions. It seems that does bother you or you may just simply get tired of saying it time & again or I'm misinterpreting your post. Some don't just believe an idea right away. I was merely wanting to hear what you had to say about these examples.

 

[mstrjon32]

bluemax1, I realize that you're primary concern is performance and, I have to say, you're one of the most knowledgeable people I've come across on any forum, but I've got another rotor question for you: How do you feel about zinc coating? Obviously this is for looks; I don't do any level of performance driving with my heavy, V6, Monte Carlo, but I do hate the way rotors look when they get all rusty. When it comes time to replace my rotors, will there be any negative impact as far as warping/heat dissipation if I go with some coated rotors? I don't want cross drilled or slotted or anything like that, I just want them to look new all the time.

Also, what would you recommend as a good pad to pair them with? Like I said, no racing, but smoothness and minimal brake dust are key.

Thanks for your input.

 

[The Critic]

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Also, what would you recommend as a good pad to pair them with? Like I said, no racing, but smoothness and minimal brake dust are key.

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I can answer that one. Akebono ProACT pads should fit the bill.

I know that rotors such as a the Powerslot do have some kind of plating on there to help the rust problem.

 

[sprintman]

626 Turbo (GT).. Don't have Tirerack here AFAIK. DBA is Australian so I'll check the DBA 4000's. thanks..s

 

[bluemax1]

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When it comes time to replace my rotors, will there be any negative impact as far as warping/heat dissipation if I go with some coated rotors? I don't want cross drilled or slotted or anything like that, I just want them to look new all the time.

Also, what would you recommend as a good pad to pair them with? Like I said, no racing, but smoothness and minimal brake dust are key.

Thanks for your input.

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There is a slight reduction in thermal dissipation with zinc/cadmium coating, however, the coating is quickly scrubbed off the rotor faces wher a lot of the heat dissipation occurs and a lot of companies don't coat the internals of the rotors.

Some do coat the rotor internals though (they do that so rusty water doesn't drip out and streak your nice wheels), but even then, the reduction in thermal dissipation is very slight and not something to be concerned with.

Go ahead if you're concerned about preventing unsightly rust. My rear KVR rotors are actually coated. They did a good job (not all coatings are equal) and there is no rust on the hats. This is the main reason I had them coated. The hats and face that sits on the hub tends to rust. My hubs were also rusted as a result of this, so I cleaned off the rust, used to plated rotors, and applied Silver anti-seize to reduce/prevent corrosion.

IIRC, cadmium plating (if you can find it) is a little better as it has a lower potential for creating a galvanic couple. This is mostly if your car is exposed to salt (if you experience winter and they use salt or if you live near the sea).

As for brake pads for civilized street use, I'm not necessarily the best person to ask that, but it is somewhat dependent on the weight of the car. Some pads work great for lighter cars and not heavier ones and some are fine with heavier vehicles.

Axxis Ultimates are decent, no experience with Akebono so listen to the folks who are actualy running them. Stillen's Metal Matrix are also decent for a street pad. EBC Green Stuff is an example of a pad that works fine for light cars but not so good on heavy ones.


Max

 

[bluemax1]

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Every forum that I try to enlighten inevitably has someone who jumps in with the, "but Ferrari does it" or "but Porsche has them" or "Brembo sells the most brakes in the world and they have them" etc.

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I guess it's something about blindly believing whatever someone is saying without the poster being bothered by questions. It seems that does bother you or you may just simply get tired of saying it time & again or I'm misinterpreting your post. Some don't just believe an idea right away. I was merely wanting to hear what you had to say about these examples.

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I apologize if I came off as a little harsh. Yes, those lines always comes up, each and every single time the topic of crossdrilled brakes arises. I guess I've come across one too many people who, as opposed to posing the question out of genuine curiosity or desire to know the why's, truly believe that because XXX is doing/has it, it must therefore be good. Which is why I tend to use the term 'sheeple' describing those folks

Max

 

[ccs v2.0]

After being sold on ATE Super Blue brake fluid a few years back, I was wondering about their rotors (I saw they had rotors in some catalog last year). Are the rotors actually made by ATE, or just labeling? Are they good?

 

[bluemax1]

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After being sold on ATE Super Blue brake fluid a few years back, I was wondering about their rotors (I saw they had rotors in some catalog last year). Are the rotors actually made by ATE, or just labeling? Are they good?

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I use their brake fluid and like it, but I've never tried their rotors. When they first came out, I was initially wondering about their slot/groove design.

Although on first consideration, the smoothly radiused curves of their slots seem like a good idea to prevent stress risers, what concerned me was that right where the lines cross there are potential points for stress risers, however being nearer the center of the face of the rotor reduces the possible deformation on the stress riser to cause cracks.

It seems like there are some folks who've used them on roadcourses and they've held up fine so it might not be a problem at all. As for where they're made, I don't know that either, but ATE has been around for quite some time in Europe and I'm sure wherever these are made, they're tested to hold up to ATE's standards and I personally would consider giving them a try (on the rears since my fronts use Stoptech's proprietary rotors) based on their standards for their other brake products.

Especially for mostly street use, I would say go for it. They seem to be reasonably priced too. Not sure how they are in price compared to DBA's rotors. If the price is close, especially if they'll see some hard use I'd go with DBA. Their internal design for vented rotors is better than the standard straight vanes in regular vented rotors.

I'm not sure how DBA's 'kangaroo paw' venting design compares to directionally vaned vented rotors. Those are still the benchmark for airflow on race applications. And for directional vanes, Stoptech's staggered vane design and hat mounting system has been tested on a brake dynamometer to work better than run-of-the-mill directional vanes (as evidenced by temperatures).


Max

 

[sprintman]

The DBA 4000 Series looks the go with Kangaroo Paw vanes. Thanks for the tip. Strange world isn't it when an American points an Aussie towards Aussie product right under his nose he didn't know about.

 

[doitmyself]

bluemax,

I am sure that your comments have riled a few believers of the drilled rotor crowd. For those of us that strive not to be "sheeple" and are here to learn, we have a duty to question your statements also. The banter resulting from benjaming's challenge of your "facts" is what BITOG is all about. Please visit here more often.

I found the marketing discussion here very enlightening. At the Ferrari level???? It's so hard not to let marketing factors enter into decisions of all types. Thanks again.

On a more mundane note, a question to you. It's rumored that Autozone Duralast rotors have somewhat of a cult following in the autocross circuit. Thus, if it's good enough for autocross........think how they will do on my minivan.

Any truth to that?

 

[bluemax1]

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On a more mundane note, a question to you. It's rumored that Autozone Duralast rotors have somewhat of a cult following in the autocross circuit. Thus, if it's good enough for autocross........think how they will do on my minivan.

Any truth to that?

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To tell you the truth, although I've heard of the brand, I've had no personal experience with their products. And although I have a few friends who autoX, I don't really engage in it myself.

One thing I CAN tell you is that the demands placed on the components (like brakes and tires for instance) in autoX competition aren't quite on the level of track racing or even trackdays.

For example, some of the brake pads used by the autoX'ers don't hold up on roadcourses and will fade within a couple of laps. Another example is seen in some tires. The Falken Azenis RT-615 for instance, is a very popular tire in the street tire class and is one of the top contenders turning in very fast laptimes for a street tire, however, veteran autoX'ers spray the tire down with water to cool it between laps (or every other hot lap).

The tire builds up heat quickly which is good for autoX, but bad for longer durations, and if not cooled, it overheats and loses traction providing a 'greasy' feel. On a roadcourse ~2 miles long, this can happen within the first lap or two. So things that work well in autoX may not translate well to being repeatedly stressed for longer durations.

However, unless the minivan in question is heavily loaded or has unduly small rotors, I'd think they should be fine.


Max

 

[HondaF1Fanatic]

IIRC F1 brake rotors are not slotted or cross-drilled either. I am guessing that this is because they want the maximum thermal mass possible due to the fact that they are limited to such a small disc because of the rules regarding rim diameter.

Jon

PS: I use blanks for everything because I don't track my car anymore.

 

[bluemax1]

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IIRC F1 brake rotors are not slotted or cross-drilled either. I am guessing that this is because they want the maximum thermal mass possible due to the fact that they are limited to such a small disc because of the rules regarding rim diameter.

Jon

PS: I use blanks for everything because I don't track my car anymore.

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Well, that and they use a different technology. F1 brake rotors are carbon composite, regulated to 278mm diameter and 28mm thickness. If you look at a carbon F1 rotor, you'll notice that the actual dimensions of the vents alone are very small compared to cast iron vented rotors. The vents in carbon rotors are round holes and if you took the cross-sectional thickness of a rotor vs the empty space of the vent holes, carbon rotors have less than half the empty space.

Tis is both to maintain rigidity (which they do very well) at high clamping loads under extreme temps (up to 1800f) and for maximum thermal mass. They work best when temperature is maintained between about 750f to 1700f, as this keeps the thermal expansion more controlled and prevents them from cracking. The lower ratio of void area to volume/mass also allows for better temperature regulation. The temps don't change as quickly or vary as wildly which is a good thing. F1 brakes have forced air brake ducts (using a small impeller) but there is such a thing as too much brake cooling. Under race conditions, you want the braking system to stay within the proper operating temperatures, both maximum AND minimum. Too much temp variation thermally cycles the materials too much and compromises their integrity.


Max

 

[XS650]

Critic, you did say bullet proof

Get some made out of this:

MIL-A-46100D ARMOR, PLATE, STEEL, WROUGHT, HIGH-HARDNESS

That's assuming you can find someone to machine it. Its a bit over 50 on the Rockwell C hardness scale.

 

[HondaF1Fanatic]

How about depleted uranium?