liqui moly mos2 additive?

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: dave5358
BITOG discussion of MoS2 (maybe other additives as well) frequently devolves into two camps: respondents who have used a product, or are considering using it, and are seeking or sharing information. Then there are those who have never used a product but are able to form an opinion that they don't like the product. Take your pick.


I finally found some solid friction-reduction data!!!! http://www.infineum.com/sitecollectiondocuments/notebooks/gf5/ResearchReport.pdf
page 23, where a variety of different types of gasoline car engines were tested in quality engineering labs for friction reduction (fuel economy increases), where the only thing different was one oil had 1000 ppm moly in it. .... I have been using Mazda's 0w-20 high-moly 600 ppm latest SN oil, and I think they are on to something using that high amount. Now I also feel more confident in buying and using LiquiMoly MOS2 additive. .... Test results show a 0.5% to 3% improvement, depending on the engine you use it in. Thats big.

Thanks for posting this. Moly is good stuff, IMHO. At 600ppm, the folks at Mazda must agree. That's almost twice the moly content of Schaeffer's Supreme motor oil (and the Schaeffer folks are really into moly).

I wonder if Mazda likes it for lubricating their Wankel engines?

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Thanks for posting this. Moly is good stuff, IMHO. At 600ppm, the folks at Mazda must agree. That's almost twice the moly content of Schaeffer's Supreme motor oil (and the Schaeffer folks are really into moly).


That paper I linked to, on page 20, also shows why Mazda (Idemitsu-sourced 0w-20 oil) claims on their oil bottles that the high-moly oil starts working to reduce friction at lower temperatures. The chart shows a couple of high moly oils beginning to work as low as 50 degC, while other oils without moly don't do much until about 90 degC or so. .... (I learned a while back that Japanese companies rarely make false marketing claims since their culture doesn't allow for losing-face much.)

 

[vintageant]

Is there a UOA posted anywhere where Liqui Moly mos2 has been used?

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar


I finally found some solid friction-reduction data!!!! http://www.infineum.com/sitecollectiondocuments/notebooks/gf5/ResearchReport.pdf
page 23, where a variety of different types of gasoline car engines were tested in quality engineering labs for friction reduction (fuel economy increases), where the only thing different was one oil had 1000 ppm moly in it. .... I have been using Mazda's 0w-20 high-moly 600 ppm latest SN oil, and I think they are on to something using that high amount. Now I also feel more confident in buying and using LiquiMoly MOS2 additive. .... Test results show a 0.5% to 3% improvement, depending on the engine you use it in. Thats big.

The trip computer in my E430 showed 19.3-19.8 MPG with average speed of 29 MPH over more than 20-25k miles. The trip computer was reset at every 4-5k miles. For some interval when average speed was 28 MPH over 4-5k miles, the gas mileage went down to 18.2-18.5 MPG, with average speed of 27 MPH it went down further to mid 17.xx MPG.

With MoS2 the gas mileage is 20.3-20.5 MPG with the same average speed of 29 MPH. I only used 1/2 bottle in 8 quarts sump.

I think Liqui Moly MoS2 is worth $5-6 a bottle. Especially when you use 1/2 bottle for initial treatment and 1/4 bottle maintenance at every oil change. The money saved in lower gas used in an OCI is more than pay for a bottle of MoS2.

 

[Fraser434]

I ran 1/2 bottle of Liquimoly MOS2 additive, with Rotella T5 oil, T5 doesn't have any extra moly in its additive package, ran it 4,000 miles. The crankcase capacity is 2 gallons, I should almost be running 2x300ml bottles of mos2 additive with the crankcase capacity. Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel.

Realistically I could've ran Rotella T6 or Mobil1 TDT and it would've had nearly 100ppm MOS2 without any extra additive.

Also another company sells similar additive, Mr. Moly, or Molyslip in Canada.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Fraser434
I ran 1/2 bottle of Liquimoly MOS2 additive, with Rotella T5 oil, T5 doesn't have any extra moly in its additive package, ran it 4,000 miles. The crankcase capacity is 2 gallons, I should almost be running 2x300ml bottles of mos2 additive with the crankcase capacity. Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel.

Realistically I could've ran Rotella T6 or Mobil1 TDT and it would've had nearly 100ppm MOS2 without any extra additive.

Also another company sells similar additive, Mr. Moly, or Molyslip in Canada.




Your not using enough. Use as directed for best results,or for any results at all

 

[Fraser434]

Originally Posted By: Clevy


Your not using enough. Use as directed for best results,or for any results at all


I'll use as much as I want, when I want, thanks!

and btw, I see many in here are speculative of MOS2/Molybdenum, its a fairly common additive in few oils, Pennzoil yellow bottle has around 200ppm, Redline packs in the MOS2, 600+ppm!

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2309011

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Fraser434
Originally Posted By: Clevy


Your not using enough. Use as directed for best results,or for any results at all


I'll use as much as I want, when I want, thanks!

and btw, I see many in here are speculative of MOS2/Molybdenum, its a fairly common additive in few oils, Pennzoil yellow bottle has around 200ppm, Redline packs in the MOS2, 600+ppm!

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2309011



Then don't expect much, if anything.

See. There are these guys at a company called liqui-moly,and they do these things called tests with their products.
Then they take that data and devise a set of instructions when using their products so the user can get the results the company claims.
So personally I really couldn't care less if yup light money on fire,or let the stuff collect dust,that's entirely up to you,I merely pointed our that by not following the instructions you will not achieve the desired results.
Mos2 is not organic moly,nor tri-nuclear moly,so your link doesn't mean much comparing its use and how many ppm of moly contained.
The tri-nuclear type used by shell and Mobil is far more effective than the organic type and therefore needs much less.
And if you spent a bit of time reading about mos2 instead of posting with an attitude you'd be aware that organic moly and mos2 don't work in the same manner,and therefore comparing them is like apples and oranges.
But carry on. And keep posting. I find it amusing.

 

[harry j]

Yes, I have been using Liqui-moly for a while now and have a running UOA posted for the last 150,000 miles

 

[Revving2Redline]

Hey, VW is using it so at least we know something positive is gained. Even at its worst its still better than putting something like hyperlube/lucas oil in the crankcase. I have had no issues with LM mos2 and will keep using 150ml in a 3.3 qt sump. I havent seen the gains I wanted, but when I switch from 5w30 PU to 5w20 in the winter this product does marvels to startup and mpg. I have read too many ppls feedback to doubt its use but I had to try it myself and have always had positive results. I think it can be said that products that work remain whilst others go away.

 

[wag123]

It amazes me that, with all of the reading material here on BITOG, some people STILL don't get that there are TWO different kinds of moly!
Other than in a couple of grades of Liqui-Moly's own motor oil, colloidal (particulate molybdenum disulfide) MoS2 is not used by ANY other oil company in ANY of their oils. Organic moly (liquid molybdenum oxide) is what the oil companies put in their oil. Other than sharing the WORD moly and both being used to reduce friction and wear, the two substances are NOT the same and work in entirely different ways.
If you want the specific benefits provided by MoS2 colloidal moly, you MUST use an MoS2 additive. I use Liqui-Moly's MoS2. It is a proven product from a reputable company.

 

[GregGA]

+1!

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: wag123
It amazes me that, with all of the reading material here on BITOG, some people STILL don't get that there are TWO different kinds of moly!
Other than in a couple of grades of Liqui-Moly's own motor oil, colloidal (particulate molybdenum disulfide) MoS2 is not used by ANY other oil company in ANY of their oils. Organic moly (liquid molybdenum oxide) is what the oil companies put in their oil. Other than sharing the WORD moly and both being used to reduce friction and wear, the two substances are NOT the same and work in entirely different ways.
If you want the specific benefits provided by MoS2 colloidal moly, you MUST use an MoS2 additive. I use Liqui-Moly's MoS2. It is a proven product from a reputable company.




Hehehe.

With all the info,data and what not we've got in this fine forum I still see posts from guys who truly believe that synthetic is "slipperier" than mineral oil if you can believe that wives tale is still being spread.
There should be a sub-forum titled "can you believe this" where members can post some of funny/absurd/ignorant things we've seen from various sources on the net,and here of course.
Should be good for a laugh anyways.
I'm sure I'd have a few quotes in there over the years.
Theses no shame in admitting I don't know something,ignoring facts though because they don't fit into a pre-conceived notion might be though.

 

[Vikas]

My brother hears valve noise on his Porsche. I think he is imagining it because I did not hear it when I drove it (but my hearing is weak) and his Porsche mechanic did not hear it either! He also is little concerned that his mechanic put Motul 5W40 synthetic oil. He was expecting the mechanic to put 10W50 as he is in Virginia climate. I told him to let the mechanic handle it as he knows a *LOT* about these cars and has stellar reputation but my brother is somewhat of an OCD personality when it comes to new to him baby.

So I suggested him that he get a can of LM MOS2 from his local NAPA and put it in. I think this would be the perfect placebo for him Seriously, I think it will make the engine sound nicer and will also give the little bit extra protection to the oil. I assured him that I used it in all my older cars and I have liked it.

Any contrary opinions and rationale behind it? 99 Boxster 77K miles.

 

[dennishiip]

As far as the viscosity, 5W-40 or 0W-40 is the way to go in the water cooled Porsche. MOS2 is a good choice. I use in all my cars and anecdotally have positive results with it.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
My brother hears valve noise on his Porsche. I think he is imagining it because I did not hear it when I drove it (but my hearing is weak) and his Porsche mechanic did not hear it either! He also is little concerned that his mechanic put Motul 5W40 synthetic oil. He was expecting the mechanic to put 10W50 as he is in Virginia climate. I told him to let the mechanic handle it as he knows a *LOT* about these cars and has stellar reputation but my brother is somewhat of an OCD personality when it comes to new to him baby.

So I suggested him that he get a can of LM MOS2 from his local NAPA and put it in. I think this would be the perfect placebo for him Seriously, I think it will make the engine sound nicer and will also give the little bit extra protection to the oil. I assured him that I used it in all my older cars and I have liked it.


Depending on which Motul 5W-40 the mechanic installed, it could actually be thicker than even M1 5W-50 in HTHSV!!

Also, assure him that Motul oils shear VERY little, especially their 300V line.

 

[Maxima97]

Add 1/2 can to my Explorer and LX470. Didn't calculate Mpg. Just added protection in case of dry friction.

 

[Coronamaker]

Long thread but worth reading, some for the information presented, some to see how adamant folks can be about not wanting to consider an alternate view.

As someone in the Tungsten Disulphide business, I am always interested in opinions such as those presented at BITOG regarding oil and grease additives in their various forms. As far as Liqui-Moly of Germany, they are a very good company, and in many surveys, the most well known brand in Germany.

Yes LM offers two MoS2 fortified oils, and their MoS2 fortified engine treatment. No, the MoS2 fortified blends are not accepted or endorsed by the OEM's, as no OEM will probably ever willingly endorse solid insoluble particulate materials for introduction in their oils. The MoS2 used by LM is a solid particulate form of average particle size less than 0.3 micron which allows it to remain suspended in oil due to it's relatively low mass and high surface area at that size. Additionally it will not have problems with filtration at that size.

While they are not specifically endorsed by any OEM, that does not mean that solid particulates have not been tested and accepted internally by OEMs, just that they will not willing offer that acceptance in a non OEM product.

For example, and sorry that I cannot cite specifics due to NDAs, but every one of the "Big 3" has utilized MoS2 or WS2 solid film coatings in their engines at some time or another. One example is cited here: http://subscriptions.sae.org/content/970009/ on the use of solid film on the piston skirts. These have been typically spray coated or plasma deposited coatings on a variety of parts such as Piston Skirts, various Bearings & Bushings, and (Sure to draw flame from the engine break-in purists) Piston Rings.

In almost every case studies were done because these are sacrificial wear coatings, and when they wear, the coating goes into........ that's right into the oil. Every one of the Big 3 has studied these solid particulates extensively and concluded that there are no negative effects, and in some of the cases noted that the beneficial affects warranted leaving the excess powders on the parts in the case of impingement spray, or thicker layers in the case of deposition to allow for some extra material in the oil.

Now in a standard spray coating of WS2 the average particle size is 0.5 microns. The typical average size of MoS2 is 1-3 microns but can be processed down to 0.3 and lower as needed. So how does that compare to an OEM's acceptable level of oil contaminants? Typical filtration is in the what 10-15 micron effective range if I am not too far off.

So an OEM appears to be fine with filtration that will allow solid contaminants of let's say carbon at 8 microns to wander around the engine, and yes it will probably get filtered eventually. Not the best lubricant in the engine would you say, but proven solid lubricant particulates in the sub micron size range as utilized by LM is a concern?

Again I am asking if you truly believe that a 0.3 micron particle of MoS2, that is less than 1/25th the size of that 8 micron bit of abrasive carbon that is acceptable to the OEMs, is to be considered unacceptable? Sure, get some user that dumps 2 pounds of MoS2 into their Prius engine, there are going to be problems. But used as directed by a competent manufacturer and are you really going to stand by the argument that a solid form of Moly is bad whereas a soluble form is ok?

Now I make a few assumptions here, one is that the particles are actually sub micron and from a reliable source. Two would be that the MoS2 is of high quality because as a mined material, it is subject to the geological conditions under which is formed. Three is that if the solid particulate is in an oil, that the oil blend conforms otherwise to all specifications needed for the vehicle, and if it is a treatment, then the carrier must not interfere with the oil it is being added to.

I surely hope that the folks here do not contend that MoS2 is not a lubricant as that would be ridiculous.

It is worth noting that MoS2 much like WS2 coats almost all of the internal surfaces that it comes in contact with which is one reason a first time treatment will result in more MoS2 coming out of the oil. I have read numerous times that it only coats friction surfaces which is simply not the case. The plus side is that both MoS2 and WS2 will actively hold a film of oil on the surfaces they have coated providing a layer of oil on cold start, as well as providing a corrosion resistant layer when an engine is stored for a prolonged time.

The next technological step in solid lubricants was to drop into the true Nano sizes below 0.1 micron as this increases the surface area and reactivity. In the Nano sizes even WS2, which has about 50% more mass than MoS2, will stay in suspension without a separate dispersant. Nano WS2 is available commercially in products such as Miller's Oil products, or some of Archoil's treatments. Nano MoS2 may or may not ever see commercial product as it is easier to suspend due to it's lower mass.

So that was a few thoughts to add to this discussion, and a question or two about the validity of OEMs views on, and acceptance of, particulate lubricants in an engine. Hope it was not a total waste of your time to read, and I will try to find time to stay more current in the forums.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Thank you Coronamaker. Great write up.

I use only 1/2 can of Liqui-Moly MoS2 in the E430 with sump capacity of 8.5 quarts. The recommend is full can for 4-5 qt sump and more for 7-8 qt sump.

So far it seems doing good with gas ileage improve by about 0.5-0.8 MPG, from around 18.5-18.8 MPG to about 19.2-19.8 MPG

 

[wag123]

Excellent post Coronamaker.
Thank you.