Lion plant struggling

[alarmguy]

They have electric buses in Iceland. And tons of electric cars.

Well honestly barely anyone lives in Iceland. 80% of the population lives in one area and the population of less than 350,000 is less than that Nassau and Suffolk Counties on Long Island, NY
I only bring this up as we (sometimes me too) forget the population and landmass of the USA when comparing to many other countries.

Interesting read though, as long as we remember that the population of Iceland doesnt even make up 0% of the world population
7% of its cars are electric and 7% hybrid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Iceland

 

[jkhawaii]

It actually hurts to think about how established methods of product testing were omitted.

Fleet vehicles used 'round the clock should've been electrified first. Mail trucks, police cars, taxis and local PUD vehicles come to mind.
Shunters used in trailer yards could be electrified.

Ma and Pa Kettle driving 3 or 4 miles to the store don't need stupendous, electric cars....more basic ones would do.

Or, none of the above.

 

[honeeagle]

Of all uses for cordless vehicles a school bus would be ideal. Can use regen when stopping.

Trash truck would be another.

except no parents would put their kids on one.
............ after the first fire.

 

[Rand]

Of all uses for cordless vehicles a school bus would be ideal. Can use regen when stopping.

Trash truck would be another.

nah, hybrid trash truck.. even better.. batteries wont last all day for full EV.
School bus eh.. maybe they could charge it between uses.. but the $$$ doesnt make sense.

 

[Torrid]

except no parents would put their kids on one.
............ after the first fire.

Dramatic.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Rich guys “ hey what about the 50 Trillion you owe us?”
Fed “ what 50 Trillion? ”.
Melt Down.

 

[Opelman]

The California school district that I retired from as a mechanic has gone electric by state mandate. The result has been a disaster for them as the Blue Bird/ Cummins buses have been exceptionally trouble prone. Total unreliable garbage from front to back. Before I retired I got the chance to test drive a Lion electric. I will say that I liked its build and engineering with one exception much better than the Navistar or Thomas offerings. I was hopeful that Lion would get the electric bus market for operations where electric makes sense and the others would go back to the drawing board.

 

[Astro14]

Virginia Beach has about 1,000 buses (might be 800, or 900, but the rough number is about right) and has acquired 6 electric busses through a pilot program with Dominion Power (the local electric utility).

Not a big percentage, but an experiment. The Thomas-built electric busses cost about $370,000 vs. about $120,000 for diesel, but the utility is subsidizing the experiment, so the cost to the taxpayer is the same.

I think the duty cycle of the school bus fleet is perfect for electric - a bus runs for about 90 minutes in the morning, and 90 minutes in the afternoon. Lots of time for charging back at the bus lot. Further, all the stop and go with regenerative braking is a real use of electric.

Time will tell what the fleet experiment yields - but as a taxpayer, if this saves us money in fuel and maintenance - I’m in.

 

[alarmguy]

Virginia Beach has about 1,000 buses (might be 800, or 900, but the rough number is about right) and has acquired 6 electric busses through a pilot program with Dominion Power (the local electric utility).

Not a big percentage, but an experiment. The Thomas-built electric busses cost about $370,000 vs. about $120,000 for diesel, but the utility is subsidizing the experiment, so the cost to the taxpayer is the same.

I think the duty cycle of the school bus fleet is perfect for electric - a bus runs for about 90 minutes in the morning, and 90 minutes in the afternoon. Lots of time for charging back at the bus lot. Further, all the stop and go with regenerative braking is a real use of electric.

Time will tell what the fleet experiment yields - but as a taxpayer, if this saves us money in fuel and maintenance - I’m in.

So assuming 800 buses.
At current pricing to replace them all as diesel would cost the taxpayers 96 million dollars
To replace them all as electric would cost 296 million dollars, that is 200 million more plus add in another 80 million for the chargers and we would be looking at a bill of over 375 million dollars That would be 3,125 diesel buses compared to 800 EV busses for the same money.

Also the electric bus is unproven reliability so true cost is not known, from my VERY limited knowledge and reading they have been troublesome. Also at what point will the battery need to be replaced? What will the everyday maintenance be?
Also the charging stations themselves run at $100,000+ each. How reliable will they be? They are almost the same cost as an entire diesel bus and if you had one charger per bus that would add another 80 million to the cost.

It seems to me, at this point that asks a lot of the taxpayers who already gripe about school budgets. Then again, there is the Federal government supporting the school bus thing with tax dollars. Then one has to ask, will a better technology come along?
Im just asking questions that I think still need to be answered. It's not like I think EV buses are a bad thing but it would be nice to know the true cost and at this point I am thinking diesel is still more cost efficient.

BTW- Im not disagreeing with you, with utilities and the feds picking up the cost I dont see any harm in trying it out. That is the only way to know if it is worth it to a school district in the long term while these incentives are still around at much greater reduced cost to the local taxpayer.

 

[Astro14]

So assuming 800 buses.
At current pricing to replace them all as diesel would cost the taxpayers 96 million dollars
To replace them all as electric would cost 200 million dollars more at 296 million dollars

Also the electric bus is unproven reliability so true cost is not known, from my VERY limited knowledge and reading they have been troublesome. Also at what point will the battery need to be replaced? What will the everyday maintenance be?
Also the charging stations themselves run at $100,000+ each. How reliable will they be?

It seems to me, at this point that asks a lot of the taxpayers who already gripe about school budgets. Then again, there is the Federal government supporting the school bus thing with tax dollars. Then one has to ask, will a better technology come along?
Im just asking questions that I think still need to be answered. It's not like I think EV buses are a bad thing but it would be nice to know the true cost and at this point I am thinking diesel is still more cost efficient.

This is why a pilot program with six total busses makes sense.

SIX.

Not 800. Six.

We will operate them and answer all the questions you ask in the real world, instead of hypothesizing.

Further, the power company’s made the busses available.

This did not cost the taxpayers any more than the diesel busses.

 

[alarmguy]

This is why a pilot program with six total busses makes sense.

SIX.

Not 800. Six.

We will operate them and answer all the questions you ask in the real world, instead of hypothesizing.

Further, the power company’s made the busses available.

This did not cost the taxpayers any more than the diesel busses.

agree
They are doing the same here next door.

"Jan 10, 2024The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Clean School Bus Grant Program is giving $26.7 million in federal funds to buy 114 electric school buses, Gov. Roy Cooper's office announced Tuesday. Durham Public Schools will get 38 of those buses, and Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools will"

Throw in the health agenda and they can fall back on that if it fails to be cost effective. But with all the agencies throwing taxpayer money at it .. well if I was a district I would take it too for now.

https://www.wect.com/2024/01/10/nc-will-get-114-more-electric-school-buses-heres-where-theyll-go/

 

[Fair enough]

Virginia Beach has about 1,000 buses (might be 800, or 900, but the rough number is about right) and has acquired 6 electric busses through a pilot program with Dominion Power (the local electric utility).

Not a big percentage, but an experiment. The Thomas-built electric busses cost about $370,000 vs. about $120,000 for diesel, but the utility is subsidizing the experiment, so the cost to the taxpayer is the same.

I think the duty cycle of the school bus fleet is perfect for electric - a bus runs for about 90 minutes in the morning, and 90 minutes in the afternoon. Lots of time for charging back at the bus lot. Further, all the stop and go with regenerative braking is a real use of electric.

Time will tell what the fleet experiment yields - but as a taxpayer, if this saves us money in fuel and maintenance - I’m in.

I can get a whole diesel school bus for the price of a fancy cybertruck?

 

[Torrid]

I can get a whole diesel school bus for the price of a fancy cybertruck?

You could get a Cybertruck and a Model 3 for that amount. Probably won't move too many students with them though.

 

[honeeagle]

Virginia Beach has about 1,000 buses (might be 800, or 900, but the rough number is about right) and has acquired 6 electric busses through a pilot program with Dominion Power (the local electric utility).

Not a big percentage, but an experiment. The Thomas-built electric busses cost about $370,000 vs. about $120,000 for diesel, but the utility is subsidizing the experiment, so the cost to the taxpayer is the same.

I think the duty cycle of the school bus fleet is perfect for electric - a bus runs for about 90 minutes in the morning, and 90 minutes in the afternoon. Lots of time for charging back at the bus lot. Further, all the stop and go with regenerative braking is a real use of electric.

Time will tell what the fleet experiment yields - but as a taxpayer, if this saves us money in fuel and maintenance - I’m in.

our buses run 2 hours morning and afternoon,4 hours between runs, a fast charging system is likely needed to restore between runs(big bucks)
The big elephant in the room is current battery chemistry and fire risk ,parents are funny that way.
Trash truck no problem

 

[Snagglefoot]

agree
They are doing the same here next door.

"Jan 10, 2024The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Clean School Bus Grant Program is giving $26.7 million in federal funds to buy 114 electric school buses, Gov. Roy Cooper's office announced Tuesday. Durham Public Schools will get 38 of those buses, and Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools will"

Throw in the health agenda and they can fall back on that if it fails to be cost effective. But with all the agencies throwing taxpayer money at it .. well if I was a district I would take it too for now.

https://www.wect.com/2024/01/10/nc-will-get-114-more-electric-school-buses-heres-where-theyll-go/

And actually it’s not tax money they are throwing at it, it’s deficit IOU chits.

 

[Astro14]

I can get a whole diesel school bus for the price of a fancy cybertruck?

Tempting, isn’t it?

 

[Vercingetorix]

I’m very curious why in any bodies mind it makes a difference if the utility funds it or the municipality/government. It is all payed for by the consumer isn’t it?

 

[Snagglefoot]

I’m very curious why in any bodies mind it makes a difference if the utility funds it or the municipality/government. It is all payed for by the consumer isn’t it?

Don’t forget.The consumer is NOT paying for it. The government takes out a loan in the consumer’s name.

 

[bullwinkle]

Rich guys “ hey what about the 50 Trillion you owe us?”
Fed “ what 50 Trillion? ”.
Melt Down.

You misspelled "Fed creates 50T out of thin air" there!

 

[Astro14]

I’m very curious why in any bodies mind it makes a difference if the utility funds it or the municipality/government. It is all payed for by the consumer isn’t it?

It doesn’t make any difference, but the point was selling it to the taxpayers.

I am all for innovation, and I think we have to experiment, to see how things work in the real world, but taxpayer funded innovation has a mixed reputation, and would not have been palatable to the taxpayers.

The utility in question has $14 billion/year in revenue. Spending a few million on electric busses out of that is hardly burdensome to anyone.