I don't think there is a way to estimate what the MRV would be when mixing a 0W-XX with a 5W-XX oil. Since the MRV measurement is taken at different temperatures for 0W and 5W oils, there is no way to do a calculation. I think that a mix of M1 0w20 and 5w30 will give you 5w30. If you're trying to get the best cold start pumpability, only mix 0W-oils. The best way to know what you have is to go with one oil.
Lightest 0W-30 for winter use?
- Thread starter ringmaster
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Petro Canada supreme synthetic 0w30.
The cold flow properties are second to none for PC oils.
The cold flow properties are second to none for PC oils.
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Petro Canada supreme synthetic 0w30.
The cold flow properties are second to none for PC oils.
As I recall the cold flow properties for the previous generation of PC 0W30 (i.e. the GF4) was superior to the current GF5 rendition.
Petro Canada supreme synthetic 0w30.
The cold flow properties are second to none for PC oils.
As I recall the cold flow properties for the previous generation of PC 0W30 (i.e. the GF4) was superior to the current GF5 rendition.
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I would use the RL 0W30 and a 200W magnetic pan heater on a programmable timer you can find at any big box store. Set the timer for 1 hour of power before your daily initial start.
Route the cord up and through an edge of the grill so it's an easy plug & play. On warmer nights, dont even bother plugging it in and no energy is consumed.
Since the advent of the nice digital programmable timers, this is a non-issue. Especially with awesome oils like the Redline products.
Route the cord up and through an edge of the grill so it's an easy plug & play. On warmer nights, dont even bother plugging it in and no energy is consumed.
Since the advent of the nice digital programmable timers, this is a non-issue. Especially with awesome oils like the Redline products.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Your mix may actually substantially increase MRV.
I don't know of any oil chemistry where that will happen.
The resultant MVR will be between the values of the two oils being blended but it will favour the heavier oil, how much so is hard to say. The best indicator of what is going on is an oil pressure gauge although starting an engine unaided at -40 degrees will but the oil pump into by-pass immediately. What you would be comparing is the time it takes come out of by-pass.
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Well that throws a wrench into my plans! If I have to stick with the same brands/formulations my two options would be:
50/50 mix of Red Line 0W-20 and 0W-30
or
50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and 5w30
I think the Mobil mix would have a lower MRV.
Since you're in Canada and you can't get M1 0w30 I'd suggest a 60/40 blend of M1 0W-20 and XD-3 0w30 which has a MRV of 14,900cP. That will give you a 0w30 with the lowest MRV you can hope for. I've actually spoken to Mobil about this blend and while it has their blessing they couldn't give me a prediction short of testing of what the resultant MRV would be. The best they would offer was that it would be somewhere between the MRV of the two oils. When pressed further they agreed that a figure of 12,000cP probabily wouldn't be far off.
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Your mix may actually substantially increase MRV.
I don't know of any oil chemistry where that will happen.
The resultant MVR will be between the values of the two oils being blended but it will favour the heavier oil, how much so is hard to say. The best indicator of what is going on is an oil pressure gauge although starting an engine unaided at -40 degrees will but the oil pump into by-pass immediately. What you would be comparing is the time it takes come out of by-pass.
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Well that throws a wrench into my plans! If I have to stick with the same brands/formulations my two options would be:
50/50 mix of Red Line 0W-20 and 0W-30
or
50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and 5w30
I think the Mobil mix would have a lower MRV.
Since you're in Canada and you can't get M1 0w30 I'd suggest a 60/40 blend of M1 0W-20 and XD-3 0w30 which has a MRV of 14,900cP. That will give you a 0w30 with the lowest MRV you can hope for. I've actually spoken to Mobil about this blend and while it has their blessing they couldn't give me a prediction short of testing of what the resultant MRV would be. The best they would offer was that it would be somewhere between the MRV of the two oils. When pressed further they agreed that a figure of 12,000cP probabily wouldn't be far off.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
...........I don't know of any oil chemistry where that will happen.............
Obviously, because you are not aware of such chemistry, does not mean it can't happen, especially as the oil ages.
Here is one example:
Low-Temperature Compatibility of Engine Lubricants and the Risk of Engine Pumpability Failure:
"An investigation of an engine field-failure found low-temperature incompatibility to be the root-cause of an engine pumping failure. This was established from an examination of the rheology of the new and used oils. It was later discovered that some SAE multigrade oils that contain higher-cloud-point basestocks are incompatible with other same-W-grade oils that contain VI improvers that have a propensity to interact with wax precursors. The latter oils, which failed the Scanning Brookfield test, but not the TP1 mini-rotary viscometer test, were found to be incompatible with a number of commercial multigrade oils at low-temperature."
http://papers.sae.org/932831/
From the earlier linked Infineum article:
"Florkowski et al. [ref7] showed that certain high ethylene olefin copolymer
(HE-OCP) viscosity modifiers capable of developing polymer networks in aged oils can lead to low temperature pumpability problems."
...........I don't know of any oil chemistry where that will happen.............
Obviously, because you are not aware of such chemistry, does not mean it can't happen, especially as the oil ages.
Here is one example:
Low-Temperature Compatibility of Engine Lubricants and the Risk of Engine Pumpability Failure:
"An investigation of an engine field-failure found low-temperature incompatibility to be the root-cause of an engine pumping failure. This was established from an examination of the rheology of the new and used oils. It was later discovered that some SAE multigrade oils that contain higher-cloud-point basestocks are incompatible with other same-W-grade oils that contain VI improvers that have a propensity to interact with wax precursors. The latter oils, which failed the Scanning Brookfield test, but not the TP1 mini-rotary viscometer test, were found to be incompatible with a number of commercial multigrade oils at low-temperature."
http://papers.sae.org/932831/
From the earlier linked Infineum article:
"Florkowski et al. [ref7] showed that certain high ethylene olefin copolymer
(HE-OCP) viscosity modifiers capable of developing polymer networks in aged oils can lead to low temperature pumpability problems."
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No argument that an oils cold pumpability can decline as an oil ages, but that paper is nine years old and 0W oils that are specifically formulated for long drain periods I believe have addressed the issue.
Additionally in the recent article about the types polymer thickeners in Lubes 'N' Greases, the problematic copolymer thickeners are not used as much today as they once were.
Additionally in the recent article about the types polymer thickeners in Lubes 'N' Greases, the problematic copolymer thickeners are not used as much today as they once were.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since you're in Canada and you can't get M1 0w30 I'd suggest a 60/40 blend of M1 0W-20 and XD-3 0w30 which has a MRV of 14,900cP. That will give you a 0w30 with the lowest MRV you can hope for. I've actually spoken to Mobil about this blend and while it has their blessing they couldn't give me a prediction short of testing of what the resultant MRV would be. The best they would offer was that it would be somewhere between the MRV of the two oils. When pressed further they agreed that a figure of 12,000cP probabily wouldn't be far off.
Thanks for staying with me on this and offering good advice. I remember the 0w30 XD-3 from years ago when I tried it in my Talon and something else that I can't recall. I have read good things about it and my local distributor keeps it in stock.
What is the advantage of using the XD-3 rather than Red Line? I am guessing it is the lower MRV figure since the Red Line is slightly lighter at operating temp. How do the two compare in terms of Moly and other additives?
Does anyone know a US vendor that would be willing to ship 24L of Mobil 1 0w30 AFE to Canada or even to my US address? If I could just get my hands on this stuff I could forget about blending two different types of oil!
Since you're in Canada and you can't get M1 0w30 I'd suggest a 60/40 blend of M1 0W-20 and XD-3 0w30 which has a MRV of 14,900cP. That will give you a 0w30 with the lowest MRV you can hope for. I've actually spoken to Mobil about this blend and while it has their blessing they couldn't give me a prediction short of testing of what the resultant MRV would be. The best they would offer was that it would be somewhere between the MRV of the two oils. When pressed further they agreed that a figure of 12,000cP probabily wouldn't be far off.
Thanks for staying with me on this and offering good advice. I remember the 0w30 XD-3 from years ago when I tried it in my Talon and something else that I can't recall. I have read good things about it and my local distributor keeps it in stock.
What is the advantage of using the XD-3 rather than Red Line? I am guessing it is the lower MRV figure since the Red Line is slightly lighter at operating temp. How do the two compare in terms of Moly and other additives?
Does anyone know a US vendor that would be willing to ship 24L of Mobil 1 0w30 AFE to Canada or even to my US address? If I could just get my hands on this stuff I could forget about blending two different types of oil!
XD-3 has now been relabelled Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0w30 with a corresponding increase in price, but it's the same PAO based product. It doesn't contain much moly but being a HDEO it has a lot of ZDDP. This oil has been specifically developed for extreme cold performance with years of Arctic testing. That's not the case with Red Line, and as much as I like many of their products it's high temperature protection that's their forte not extreme cold performance.
The following UOA of this oil compared to M1 AFE 0w30 your might find interesting:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2221448&page=1
Since Mobil have given the ok on blending M1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 I wouldn't bother with trying to source M1 0W-30. Personally I would prefer the blend for the high PAO and ZDDP content and I suspect it will have an edge in the MRV department as well.
The following UOA of this oil compared to M1 AFE 0w30 your might find interesting:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2221448&page=1
Since Mobil have given the ok on blending M1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 I wouldn't bother with trying to source M1 0W-30. Personally I would prefer the blend for the high PAO and ZDDP content and I suspect it will have an edge in the MRV department as well.
I'm really impressed with M1 0w20 in the cold. Engine is silent.
The AFE oils are very good in extreme cold and high temperatures. The 0w30 meets GM 4718M. They also have the equivalent high temp ability as the EP.
It's not a super long drain oil though.
The AFE oils are very good in extreme cold and high temperatures. The 0w30 meets GM 4718M. They also have the equivalent high temp ability as the EP.
It's not a super long drain oil though.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since Mobil have given the ok on blending M1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 I wouldn't bother with trying to source M1 0W-30. Personally I would prefer the blend for the high PAO and ZDDP content and I suspect it will have an edge in the MRV department as well.
My local distributor just gave me the same news re the name change to Mobil rather than Esso.
This has been a very helpful thread. All things considered I am going to do an oil change next week with a mix of Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30.
My Toyota 4.7L V8 needs ~7.5L of oil so I plan to use 4L of the 0W-20 and 3.5L of the 0W-30. If my calculations are correct this will give me a cSt @ 100C of just over 10 and an HTHS of approx 3.3 which I believe is a great spec for an oil that will offer a wide range of protection and be amazing for very cold start.
Quote:
The AFE oils are very good in extreme cold and high temperatures. The 0w30 meets GM 4718M. They also have the equivalent high temp ability as the EP.
It's not a super long drain oil though.
Good to know. Mine will never stay in for more than maybe 6k miles...at most!
Since Mobil have given the ok on blending M1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 I wouldn't bother with trying to source M1 0W-30. Personally I would prefer the blend for the high PAO and ZDDP content and I suspect it will have an edge in the MRV department as well.
My local distributor just gave me the same news re the name change to Mobil rather than Esso.
This has been a very helpful thread. All things considered I am going to do an oil change next week with a mix of Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30.
My Toyota 4.7L V8 needs ~7.5L of oil so I plan to use 4L of the 0W-20 and 3.5L of the 0W-30. If my calculations are correct this will give me a cSt @ 100C of just over 10 and an HTHS of approx 3.3 which I believe is a great spec for an oil that will offer a wide range of protection and be amazing for very cold start.
Quote:
The AFE oils are very good in extreme cold and high temperatures. The 0w30 meets GM 4718M. They also have the equivalent high temp ability as the EP.
It's not a super long drain oil though.
Good to know. Mine will never stay in for more than maybe 6k miles...at most!
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ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30 and therefore have assumed a HTHSV of 3.5cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30
A few years back I spent too much time trying to track down the HTHS # and the NOACK # for this outstanding Esso XD 0W30. I spoke and emailed a couple of Esso reps. and neither would provide me with such data even though many other companies (e.g. Petro Canada) provide detailed PDS for their PCMOs and HDEOs. They had no patience for me in terms of providing this information. Maybe this has changed given it (Esso XD 0W30) has been rebadged as a Mobil product
.
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30
A few years back I spent too much time trying to track down the HTHS # and the NOACK # for this outstanding Esso XD 0W30. I spoke and emailed a couple of Esso reps. and neither would provide me with such data even though many other companies (e.g. Petro Canada) provide detailed PDS for their PCMOs and HDEOs. They had no patience for me in terms of providing this information. Maybe this has changed given it (Esso XD 0W30) has been rebadged as a Mobil product
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30 and therefore have assumed a HTHSV of 3.5cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
I thought I had the exact HTHS spec but when I went searching I couldn't find it.
Mobil 0w30 AFE has an HTHS of 3.0 so my mix should be safe.
I am still trying to wrap my head around how good or bad of an idea this Delvac 0w30 and M1 0W-20 mix is going to be. Do you think the specs, additives and overall grade would be robust enough for summer use (no towing or super hot weather)?
Considering I drive a max of 8k/yr it would be nice to have an oil that was super thin for ultra cold morning starts and that still protects in 90F weather so I could do one oil change each year.
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30 and therefore have assumed a HTHSV of 3.5cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
I thought I had the exact HTHS spec but when I went searching I couldn't find it.
Mobil 0w30 AFE has an HTHS of 3.0 so my mix should be safe.
I am still trying to wrap my head around how good or bad of an idea this Delvac 0w30 and M1 0W-20 mix is going to be. Do you think the specs, additives and overall grade would be robust enough for summer use (no towing or super hot weather)?
Considering I drive a max of 8k/yr it would be nice to have an oil that was super thin for ultra cold morning starts and that still protects in 90F weather so I could do one oil change each year.
I have a 2005 Toyota Tundra with the 4.7l engine. Am using the Mobil 1 0W20 and was wondering what is recommmended for OCI. I do a mix of hwy and city driving and am not hard on the gas.
Thanks
Thanks
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30 and therefore have assumed a HTHSV of 3.5cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
I thought I had the exact HTHS spec but when I went searching I couldn't find it.
Mobil 0w30 AFE has an HTHS of 3.0 so my mix should be safe.
I am still trying to wrap my head around how good or bad of an idea this Delvac 0w30 and M1 0W-20 mix is going to be. Do you think the specs, additives and overall grade would be robust enough for summer use (no towing or super hot weather)?
Considering I drive a max of 8k/yr it would be nice to have an oil that was super thin for ultra cold morning starts and that still protects in 90F weather so I could do one oil change each year.
Would you be comfortable with this blend even in passenger cars engines on gasoline , an oil having high Zinc ?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
ringmaster, I've never been able to get the exact HTHSV spec' from Imperial Oil on the Mobil Delvac Elite 222 (nee XD-3)0W-30 and therefore have assumed a HTHSV of 3.5cP.
Have you uncovered a more precise HTHSV figure for this oil?
Based on a 3.5cP value, the resulting figure for your blend will be about 3.0cP.
I thought I had the exact HTHS spec but when I went searching I couldn't find it.
Mobil 0w30 AFE has an HTHS of 3.0 so my mix should be safe.
I am still trying to wrap my head around how good or bad of an idea this Delvac 0w30 and M1 0W-20 mix is going to be. Do you think the specs, additives and overall grade would be robust enough for summer use (no towing or super hot weather)?
Considering I drive a max of 8k/yr it would be nice to have an oil that was super thin for ultra cold morning starts and that still protects in 90F weather so I could do one oil change each year.
Would you be comfortable with this blend even in passenger cars engines on gasoline , an oil having high Zinc ?
Is high zinc a problem? I thought it is the wear additive, and too much is still not a problem (.14%)
Stewart
Stewart
The higher levels of ZDDP found in HDEO is not generally problem when run in modern gasoline engined vehicles that have catalytic convertors. In theory you could shorten the cat's life but that usually is only a problem if the engine is starting to burn significant amounts of oil.
Since the OP is blending a PCMO with a HDEO it's even less of an issue in fact the somewhat higher ZDDP level is one of the benefits of blending in some HDEO. Most consider the current maximum SN levels of ZDDP to be a bit on the skippy side.
Since the OP is blending a PCMO with a HDEO it's even less of an issue in fact the somewhat higher ZDDP level is one of the benefits of blending in some HDEO. Most consider the current maximum SN levels of ZDDP to be a bit on the skippy side.
Originally Posted By: stew705
Is high zinc a problem? I thought it is the wear additive, and too much is still not a problem (.14%)
Too much of a good thing can be a problem. I'm not one to worry to death about cats, but excessive amounts (i.e. some racing oils) are corrosive. The amount you quoted is a good, high amount. I wouldn't want much higher than that in any normal, legacy application.
Is high zinc a problem? I thought it is the wear additive, and too much is still not a problem (.14%)
Too much of a good thing can be a problem. I'm not one to worry to death about cats, but excessive amounts (i.e. some racing oils) are corrosive. The amount you quoted is a good, high amount. I wouldn't want much higher than that in any normal, legacy application.
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