Lightest 0W-30 for winter use?

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Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
My wifes 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe V6 calls for a 5W20... I think I will be using Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W30 in the Summer and 0W20 in the Winter...


^That is back-spec'd right? Used to spec for 5w30?

Nice plan of action. That oil should do fine for your uses. Get a used oil analysis done!
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Starting at -10F (-23C) I would tend to rely on the MRV spec'
I got the MRV spec's for RL's OW range of oils as follows:

0W-20 ... 27,000cP
0W-30 ... 28,000cP
0W-40 ... 30,000cP

Dispite RL's very low PP they aren't really the best choice for extreme cold temp' performance.

As others have suggested I'd go with either Mobil 1 0W-20, MRV 9,200cP or Mobil 1 0W-30, MRV 13,250cP or a blend of both.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
The Subaru has never turned over so easily in cold temps as it has this winter running AFE 0w30. I'll be sticking with this oil year round (including severe service towing through summer).


Is this a turbo motor?
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: webfors
The Subaru has never turned over so easily in cold temps as it has this winter running AFE 0w30. I'll be sticking with this oil year round (including severe service towing through summer).


Is this a turbo motor?


NA
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Because there is a correlation between MRV viscosities and oil pressurization time at below freezing temperatures.

http://papers.sae.org/912337


I think you and I are reading that data differently.

That study is primarily concerned with the behavior of oils at borderline pumping temperatures and whether the "W" grade limiting temperatures set forth in SAE J300 (The CCS test temps) appropriately reflect borderline pumping temperatures for HD diesel engines. Since the MRV tests for J300 were developed using light duty gasoline engines there is some question whether those paramaters apply to HD diesels running used oil, thus the reason for so many used oil samples in the study.

The vast majority of data in the study is taken at or below the "W" grade limiting temperature set forth in J300. The authors state "Low ambient testing was geneally performed on oils at the "W" grade limiting temperature and 5*C lower (e.g. -15/-20*c for SAE 15w40's)" This is the data presented in the majority of graphs in the body of the paper.

What we are discussing here is using a 0w oil at 5w limiting temperatures of around -25*C, we are not really flirting with the pumpability limits of a 0w oil. With that in mind the only data from that study which seems relevant are Figures 23 and 24 just before the conclusion. Those figures show that as long as oils are used above their J300 limiting temperatures, pressurization time is more dependent on kinematic viscosity than MRV viscosity, which supports what I said earlier.

Look at figs 23 & 24, note how at -20*C the pressurization time for the 10w30 lies right on the trend line established by the 0w30. This despite the 10w30's MRV being six times that of the 0w30 (6 Pa-s vs 1 Pa-s). It's only when you use 10w30 at -25*C that pressurization time increases dramatically. This rapid increase in pumping time is the limiting behavior refered to by the authors. This is true of the 40wt oils as well, when used above the J300 limiting temperature all the 40wt oils lie on the same trendline.

The authors specifically note that the 5w40 synthetic does not exhibit this limiting behavior owing to the fact that its MRV is consistent with a 0w oil. This is exactly as I stated above when I said that any good 5w30 synthetic would work fine in the OP's application. Most synthetic 5w30 oils exceed the 5w MRV requirements by a wide margin, It's the CCS value which prevents them from being 0w30s.

Modern port-injected gasoline engines are enormously more capable of starting in the cold than the carburated engines the CCS requirement was developed to represent. The Toyota in question was presumably designed to start at -10*F (-23*C) on 5w30 conventional oil that barely meets the minimum requirements of J300. It will be slightly harder to start on synthetic 5w30 than 0w30, but it would still have no trouble starting, assuming the starter and battery are in good condition. It will also be safe to do so due to the good MRV performance of 5w30 synthetics.

Back to the RL vs Mobil 1 0w30 question. RL is thinner at all temps below 100*C and above the temp at which the pour point modifiers dominate the viscosity index, meaning at temperatures between say -10C and 100C. This means the pressure relief valve will close sooner with RL than with Mobil 1, providing full oil flow to the functional components sooner. This is the reason RL would be my choice for this application. The MRV viscosity of both oils is sufficiently below the limit to be of little consequence. If the OP were starting the vehicle at -30*C regularly I'd change my tune.

The lower HTHS of Mobil 1 will provide a slight bump in FE over RL, but as others have said you could mix in some 0w20 and have even better performance at intermediate temperatures while having the same HTHS as Mobil 1.

All that said, we really are splitting hairs between these two oils, your truck will live a long life on either.
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: SubLGT

[URed Line]http://papers.sae.org/912337[/URed Line]

Back to the Red Line vs Mobil 1 0w30 question. Red Line is thinner at all temps below 100*C and above the temp at which the pour point modifiers dominate the viscosity index, meaning at temperatures between say -10C and 100C. This means the pressure relief valve will close sooner with Red Line than with Mobil 1, providing full oil flow to the functional components sooner. This is the reason Red Line would be my choice for this application. The MRV viscosity of both oils is sufficiently below the limit to be of little consequence. If the OP were starting the vehicle at -30*C regularly I'd change my tune.

Red Line 0w30 is not lighter than Mobil 1 0w30 at all temp's below 100C.
You're making the classic mistake of comparing ther kinematic viscosities of widely different oil chemistries which doesn't work. Why it doesn't work is explained in the following thread titled "HTHSV trumps KV100":
[URed Line]https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276634&page=1[/URed Line]

Red Line 0w30 with it's HTHSV of 3.2cP is significantly higher than Mobil 1 0w30 at 3.0cP and this will be reflected in a higher operational viscosity with Red Line over Mobil 1 at 100C and all temp's below that. This difference will be moderated by Red Line's higher VI but not enough for Red Line to be lighter at any point.

Put another way, Mobil 1 has a significantly lower MRV @-40 degrees and a significantly lower HTHSV @150C and will have a lower operational viscosity at all temp's in between.
Does this come as any sort of surprise?
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
............I think you and I are reading that data differently........


I haven't read that paper.
grin2.gif
I saw it referenced in an ASTM book. But thanks for the synopsis.
 
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my simple but complex question
smile.gif


A couple things I would like to add.

Quote:
Back to the Red Line vs Mobil 1 0w30 question. Red Line is thinner at all temps below 100*C and above the temp at which the pour point modifiers dominate the viscosity index, meaning at temperatures between say -10C and 100C. This means the pressure relief valve will close sooner with Red Line than with Mobil 1, providing full oil flow to the functional components sooner. This is the reason Red Line would be my choice for this application. The MRV viscosity of both oils is sufficiently below the limit to be of little consequence. If the OP were starting the vehicle at -30*C regularly I'd change my tune.

The lower HTHS of Mobil 1 will provide a slight bump in FE over Red Line, but as others have said you could mix in some 0w20 and have even better performance at intermediate temperatures while having the same HTHS as Mobil 1.

All that said, we really are splitting hairs between these two oils, your truck will live a long life on either.


What if the truck was required to start in -30C weather, would the oil recommendation be something other than 0W-30, knowing that it still needs to protect at full operating temp? The Toyota synthetic 0W-20 really has my attention but I worry about it's performance in my engine under load, above say 80C.

Quote:
Red Line 0w30 with it's HTHSV of 3.2cP is significantly higher than Mobil 1 0w30 at 3.0cP and this will be reflected in a higher operational viscosity with Red Line over Mobil 1 at 100C and all temp's below that. This difference will be moderated by Red Line's higher VI but not enough for Red Line to be lighter at any point.


I hadn't bothered to think about it this way before when I was simply comparing the 40C, 100C and Pour Point numbers to determine how good the oil would be at very low temps.

I should also point out that my Toyota will start without protest at -40C so the goal of this oil exercise is more about protecting the engine at cold start than actually being able to start the engine.
 
ringmaster, just so you know the Toyota 0W-20 has a MRV of 18,000cP, at least that was the spec' for the original Nippon Oil made version of this oil.

At 80C oil temp's the 0W-20 will have about the same operational viscosity as a 40wt oil at 100C so if that's a typical maximum winter oil temp' even a 0W-20 is technically too heavy for your application. When Toyota and Honda come out with their 0W-15 and 0W-10 oils (they're working on them) that will be something to consider.
 
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
..............I should also point out that my Toyota will start without protest at -40C so the goal of this oil exercise is more about protecting the engine at cold start than actually being able to start the engine.


The MRV spec specifically addresses the issue of protecting your engine from oil starvation during very cold starts. Use at as your guide.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Starting at -10F (-23C) I would tend to rely on the MRV spec'
I got the MRV spec's for RL's OW range of oils as follows:

0W-20 ... 27,000cP
0W-30 ... 28,000cP
0W-40 ... 30,000cP

Dispite RL's very low PP they aren't really the best choice for extreme cold temp' performance.

As others have suggested I'd go with either Mobil 1 0W-20, MRV 9,200cP or Mobil 1 0W-30, MRV 13,250cP or a blend of both.


Does anyone know the MRV specs for Amsoil 0W-20 and 0w30 Signature Series?

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 isn't availablie in my area so I am looking for the next lightest option.
 
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Starting at -10F (-23C) I would tend to rely on the MRV spec'
I got the MRV spec's for RL's OW range of oils as follows:

0W-20 ... 27,000cP
0W-30 ... 28,000cP
0W-40 ... 30,000cP

Dispite RL's very low PP they aren't really the best choice for extreme cold temp' performance.

As others have suggested I'd go with either Mobil 1 0W-20, MRV 9,200cP or Mobil 1 0W-30, MRV 13,250cP or a blend of both.


Does anyone know the MRV specs for Amsoil 0W-20 and 0w30 Signature Series?

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 isn't availablie in my area so I am looking for the next lightest option.


Where do you live?
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Starting at -10F (-23C) I would tend to rely on the MRV spec'
I got the MRV spec's for RL's OW range of oils as follows:

0W-20 ... 27,000cP
0W-30 ... 28,000cP
0W-40 ... 30,000cP

Dispite RL's very low PP they aren't really the best choice for extreme cold temp' performance.

As others have suggested I'd go with either Mobil 1 0W-20, MRV 9,200cP or Mobil 1 0W-30, MRV 13,250cP or a blend of both.


Does anyone know the MRV specs for Amsoil 0W-20 and 0w30 Signature Series?

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 isn't availablie in my area so I am looking for the next lightest option.


Where do you live?


Canada...and I have confirmed that Mobil Canada doesn't import the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 .

Time to move to Plan B.

How about a 50/50 mix of Red Line 0w30 and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20? The MRV spec and vis should be close to the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 and the Red Line should give more moly than a straight Mobil 1 pour.

Pros? Cons?
 
That blend will give you a light 0w30 but the MRV won't be as good as Mobil 1 0w30 nor any better than the Toyota 0W-20 you're running now. In fact you'll be reducing the moly content since the Toyota 0W-20 already contains a moly level on par with RL.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That blend will give you a light 0w30 but the MRV won't be as good as Mobil 1 0w30 nor any better than the Toyota 0W-20 you're running now. In fact you'll be reducing the moly content since the Toyota 0W-20 already contains a moly level on par with RL.


A light 0w30 is pretty much what I set out to find so my 50/50 mix of Red Line 0w30 and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 might be a good solution. To find the actual MRV of this mix do I just average the numbers or does it get more complex than that?

At the moment I am using straight Red Line 0w30 in my 4.7L, not the Toyota 0W-20 since that is only spec'd for the 5.7L (totally different engine) in their line up of truck engines.
 
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
..............A light 0w30 is pretty much what I set out to find so my 50/50 mix of Red Line 0w30 and Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 might be a good solution. To find the actual MRV of this mix do I just average the numbers or does it get more complex than that?.........


To determine MRV of this mix, you will need to have it tested. Mixing different oil chemistries is not advisable if you live where you will encounter very cold temperatures. Your mix may actually substantially increase MRV.

http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...icants-2010.pdf
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SubLGT


To determine MRV of this mix, you will need to have it tested. Mixing different oil chemistries is not advisable if you live where you will encounter very cold temperatures. Your mix may actually substantially increase MRV.

http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...icants-2010.pdf


Well that throws a wrench into my plans! If I have to stick with the same brands/formulations my two options would be:

50/50 mix of Red Line 0W-20 and 0W-30
or
50/50 mix of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 and 5w30

I think the Mobil mix would have a lower MRV.
 
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