Lifter replacement

[JHZR2]

My 1991 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo has a lifter tick. It’s coming from under there, not the injection pump or anywhere else. The engine runs smooth and perfect. Starts easy in the coldest conditions. Smooth and good for 35MPG+.

Engine is clean.

Injectors were recently rebalanced and pop pressure set, didn’t change the noise. Again, car runs beautifully. Only has 233k miles.



We did try to find play in any lifters by turning the engine and trying to press them. No luck.

So I’m going to pull the cam, and check/change the lifters. I imported some from the UK because none of the euro places in the USA can seem to source.

The FSM is pretty clear on how to remove the cam. Not a big deal I don’t think.

But I’ve never done it before. I think some of this may help @supton too…

- should I soak the lifters in motor oil before installation? Maybe even force it in?

- what do you make of this instruction:

https://aftermarket.schaeffler.com/medias/9996005050.PDF?context=bWFzdGVyfGRvY3VtZW50c3w0MjkyMDB8YXBwbGljYXRpb24vcGRmfGRvY3VtZW50cy9oOTAvaDI3LzkyNjU1MjQyNDQ1MTAucGRmfGViNzg5Yjg2MTRkZmVhZGEzMDE4ZmZmNDA0YmI4MmVmNmQ4NDY5ZDgyN2JhMWZhMmM5YTRlMmYwNzkyMDcyZGQ

Maybe it’s because I’m literate that I can’t really figure the photos. Not sure what’s the difference between a happy and sad sound. So I rev the engine a bit and then listen…. Ok? How do I discriminate?

- should I use some assembly lube on the cam, bearings on the cam, etc? Lubricate 105 grease? Permatex red assembly lube oil? Something else?

- what else do I need to know?

Thanks!

 

[Chris142]

You shouldn't put new lifters on an old cam. Cams and lifters/ followers wear together. You are taking a risk of a flat cam and metal all through the engine.

 

[tiger862]

Did you attempt to adjust first? That job is tedious either way, however I have seen a specialist bend valve by replacing timing chain on that motor.

 

[spasm3]

You shouldn't put new lifters on an old cam. Cams and lifters/ followers wear together. You are taking a risk of a flat cam and metal all through the engine.

Ive heard thats ok, but used lifters on a new cam is a no no.

 

[JHZR2]

Did you attempt to adjust first? That job is tedious either way, however I have seen a specialist bend valve by replacing timing chain on that motor.

Adjust what?

This is an OM602 which has hydraulic lifters. There is no adjustment.

You shouldn't put new lifters on an old cam. Cams and lifters/ followers wear together. You are taking a risk of a flat cam and metal all through the engine.

Not trying to argue - you’ve seen more and know more than I ever will. These were a “weak” point on these engines, with collapsed lifters and noise being a known issue. Changes are “common”. Some folks have tried rebuilding the lifters, flushing out nasty black stagnant oil…. Ideally I could try that, and maybe only replace one or two, if I can’t get them right. What’s the degree of wear/interference that could occur? I’d have thought the noise associated with whatever is hitting/contacting would be worse for wear.

FWIW, I have tried HPL engine cleaner.

 

[DemoFly]

- should I soak the lifters in motor oil before installation? Maybe even force it in?

- what do you make of this instruction:

View attachment 203816

Maybe it’s because I’m literate that I can’t really figure the photos. Not sure what’s the difference between a happy and sad sound. So I rev the engine a bit and then listen…. Ok? How do I discriminate?

- should I use some assembly lube on the cam, bearings on the cam, etc? Lubricate 105 grease? Permatex red assembly lube oil? Something else?

- what else do I need to know?

Thanks!

1. Yes soak the lifters in engine oil. Yes force it in. Don't go overboard just until the bubbles are gone.

2. The directions are for pump up "break in" procedure. If it sounds good you're good. If it sounds bad like a tick every other engine revolution, repeat the numbered steps.

3. Yeah its probably a good idea to put some red and tacky on the cam. If I was doing this for a customer I would just use thick engine oil, but best practice is assembly lube.

4. zip tie the chain to the cam gear, and use a dowel through the cam gear to keep the cam gear exactly where it is. It doesn't have to move. Take the cam out without it.

 

[demarpaint]

You shouldn't put new lifters on an old cam. Cams and lifters/ followers wear together. You are taking a risk of a flat cam and metal all through the engine.

That's how I was taught in HS working on ICE engines. We also soaked the lifters in oil and mechanically operated them submerged in oil to get them full of oil and get as much air out as we could. I would do the same here, and make sure the lifters and cam lobe were lathered up in assembly lube.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Way back in the day changing lifters was common - I am talking about working on 1970's engines - which I would have been doing in the very late 80's. The lifters got worn and wouldn't hold pressure. Of course this was a time where it seemed they could forge a camshaft that wouldn't wear out - so no idea why that has changed.

As mentioned we would soak them in oil for days and work the lifters back and forth as best we could.

Was also common to change the oil 500 miles after any such work - which is shunned these days for some reason by the oil lasts forever crowd.

Good luck whatever you decide. Very clean engine!

 

[demarpaint]

Way back in the day changing lifters was common - I am talking about working on 1970's engines - which I would have been doing in the very late 80's. The lifters got worn and wouldn't hold pressure. Of course this was a time where it seemed they could forge a camshaft that wouldn't wear out - so no idea why that has changed.

As mentioned we would soak them in oil for days and work the lifters back and forth as best we could.

Was also common to change the oil 500 miles after any such work - which is shunned these days for some reason by the oil lasts forever crowd.

Good luck whatever you decide. Very clean engine!

Yes, we did an early oil change too, but have to be careful mentioning that here sometimes.

 

[Trav]

There is no problem using new lifter/lash adjuster with an old camshaft. immerse the lifters in oil until there are no air bubbles, no need to force it in, contrary to popular belief it is not mandatory to pump them up. Use an assembly lube, the Permatex red is fine.
I used to do quite a few of these on VW 2.0 slow engines, same deal it just had a belt, you will need to suspend the chain as in the FSM.
Never use MoS2 or any solids in engine with this type of lash adjuster, it can and is common to plug the bleed hole and tick like a monkey with a tin drum.

The instructions are straight forward, the Military has been using this type for decades, AKA the KISS instruction manual.
Basically install the parts, start the engine, run it between 3 and 3K rpm for 4 min then idle for 3 sec and shut it off.
Start the engine and listen, no ticking it is good to go, if it still ticks repeat step 3 running it at 2-3K for 4 min. The sad faces are to repeat whatever step is next to it.

 

[tiger862]

Adjust what?

This is an OM602 which has hydraulic lifters. There is no adjustment.


Not trying to argue - you’ve seen more and know more than I ever will. These were a “weak” point on these engines, with collapsed lifters and noise being a known issue. Changes are “common”. Some folks have tried rebuilding the lifters, flushing out nasty black stagnant oil…. Ideally I could try that, and maybe only replace one or two, if I can’t get them right. What’s the degree of wear/interference that could occur? I’d have thought the noise associated with whatever is hitting/contacting would be worse for wear.

FWIW, I have tried HPL engine cleaner.

There are different shims sizes for valve adjustment. To tight valve burnt, to loose noise. I know lifters are weakness for this engine as well as head gasket. Just was asking if you checked first.

 

[JHZR2]

There are different shims sizes for valve adjustment. To tight valve burnt, to loose noise. I know lifters are weakness for this engine as well as head gasket. Just was asking if you checked first.

I’m not sure I’m tracking. The lifters literally get pulled out and new ones dropped in. I don’t think I recall any other step from the FSM.

As I said, I checked for movement in any lifter, didn’t find it pressing with a tool, but the sound comes from under the VC. I suspect maybe one is collapsed fully?

 

[Trav]

There are different shims sizes for valve adjustment. To tight valve burnt, to loose noise. I know lifters are weakness for this engine as well as head gasket. Just was asking if you checked first.

These are hydraulic not shim under or over bucket.

 

[mcrn]

So clean! I believe outside of the lifter issue its broken in.

 

[dumkid]

Those look like Volkswagen TDI lifters. You can pull them apart (the tdi ones) and what I've seen happen is the spring inside the lifter breaks and then the lifter doesn't pump up properly. I don't know if these come apart.

On the Volkswagen lifters you can grab the little nub that pushes on the valve stem and pull it out of the rest of the lifter.

 

[KrisZ]

Those aren’t really lifters, rather a bucket/shim design. At least I see the bucket, not sure if they have separate shims.

But you can’t just change them. You need to know what the current valve clearance is, then measure the shim that goes under the bucket.

 

[dumkid]

Those aren’t really lifters, rather a bucket/shim design. At least I see the bucket, not sure if they have separate shims.

But you can’t just change them. You need to know what the current valve clearance is, then measure the shim that goes under the bucket.

No the bucket has a little hole on the side that lines up with an oil groove, and then there's a lifter stuck into the bottom of the bucket.

 

[KrisZ]

No the bucket has a little hole on the side that lines up with an oil groove, and then there's a lifter stuck into the bottom of the bucket.

Oh I see, I’m used to motorcycle bucket and shims, so this makes more sense, otherwise it would need constant adjustment.

If that’s the case, pressing on the bucket, while it is unloaded, should reveal the bad one. It should go down and not hold much pressure.
It doesn’t look like there is much room for that, so the cam likely has to come out anyways.

 

[Passport1]

My '89 300se, straight six gas engine, had a lifter tick. Changed the oil, added a quart of Rislone and twenty miles on the highway cured the problem.

Guess I got lucky.

 

[JHZR2]

No the bucket has a little hole on the side that lines up with an oil groove, and then there's a lifter stuck into the bottom of the bucket.

Right. Folks literally pull out the old and drop in new. Different.

I too have heard they are like the vw lifters. Some folks have taken them apart and removed heavy gunk. That seems like a best practice maybe for currently functional lifters, to keep other issues from doing them in, but whichever have operational issues need to be swapped of course…