Lets talk about Redline

[Pablo]

I thought you were going to talk about Redline.

That is not the official Amsoil line, just hack dealers. Enough said.

Bottom line: Redline has a few great analyis' and many that say: Why?

 

[buster]

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That is not the official Amsoil line, just hack dealers. Enough said

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The quote above (From a dealer website) raises an intersting point though, about the amount of Moly Redline uses. Can it cause problems?
*The article aslo mentioned how the polyester base stocks don't react well with the lead in engines. Never heard this before.

[ September 07, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

If Redline's high moly caused problems, I'm sure Terry would've noticed it by now, but yet he still recommends Redline to a lot of his customers that race. That says a lot right there.

 

[buster]

True, and I believe him. I've also never heard anything about the polyester base stocks reacting with the lead in the engines.

 

[Al]

Well-Ion another post someone asked why Delvac 1 didn't use moly. I wonder if there is a problem with extended drain intervals and and moly. I'm talking longer than maybe 20K miles or so. Maybe Amsoil and Mobil 1 know something here.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I think that most people do not understand how well some ester clean. I also think that most people have no idea what tpe of deposits are in their engine. Another key point to remeber is that few labs can give you a good oxidation or nitration number with Redline or any other heavy ester base oil.

One of the benifitts of Redline is what it does not leave behind! I have never seen an engine feed a steady diet of Redline ever have varnish or sludge. I am sure it is possable but I have never seen it.

Products like Auro-Rx, 131, LC, Amsoil Flush etc. all try to remove what your oil leaves behind. I think it would be safer to not leave so many deposits behind in the first place.

This is one reason I am so interested in German Castrol. THe idea of a mass marketed ester based oil with large scale distribution is exciteing. So far none of my AUtozones have had it.

While wear metal reduction is great it is my personel and professional opion that deposits are a greater area of concern!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Delvac does not use moly because some diesel engines need the friction for their valve train to function properly. The moly used in well formulated oils is not a solid and is not corrsive.

 

[buster]

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This also tells me that Delvac 1 is using heavy TME polyol esters to replace the moly as the secondary friction modifier. This is expensive but very effective.

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As Molekule stated above, Delvac 1 uses TME esters instead of Moly. It's not needed in that oil. Al, you make a good point. Extended drains with that much Moly might pose a problem. IMO, I wouldn't use Redline for extended drains anyway. I'd rather use it as a great 5-9k mile oil that just protects better then anything else.

[ September 07, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[satterfi]

Honda factory fill has +500ppm Mo.

Maybe both Honda and Redline need an education on what's good for an engine.

 

[buster]

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Maybe both Honda and Redline need an education on what's good for an engine.

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Good point.

 

[Rexman]

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Originally posted by buster:
Each analysis shows basically the same results: excessive wear metal content, low tbn value, excessive oxidation percentage and Molybdenum levels which are "over range". These results would seem to indicate that after a fairly short oil drain interval the Red Line Oil used in each of these applications is showing unacceptable levels of oil degradation, and the Polyolester base stock seems to be reacting negatively with the aluminum and lead materials in the engine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
I think that most people do not understand how well some ester clean. I also think that most people have no idea what tpe of deposits are in their engine. Another key point to remeber is that few labs can give you a good oxidation or nitration number with Redline or any other heavy ester base oil.

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The first quote reaches the same UOA conclusions that were freaking all of us out at first about Redline. But JohnBrowning has it right, IMO: Redline does an outstanding job of cleaning and the rapid drop in TBN is not a problem because the polyol ester base has its own detergent action.

Also, the large amounts of moly help prevent excessive wear during start-up and hard acceleration--once the plating action is complete, the UOAs should look a lot better.

I sit and meditate about Redline sometimes while doing my yoga. Happy to report the vibes are good.

[ September 07, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Rexman ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
--snipo-
One of the benifitts of Redline is what it does not leave behind! I have never seen an engine feed a steady diet of Redline ever have varnish or sludge. I am sure it is possable but I have never seen it.
-snip-
I think it would be safer to not leave so many deposits behind in the first place.
-snip-

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1. How many miles was in that engine?
Several hundred "K"? perhaps over 300K

I don't doubt you, I want some info to guage the oils I've used.

I've seen some go 300K with about as much buildup as you see in 10 K / 18K max.

When I finish my roll of film I'll show you what I mean if I can get my computer to post my scans, can't seem to get it to work.

As far as not leaving deposits behind, that's why I would Flush at their first sign... or every 15-30K with a regular oil.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Delvac does not use moly because some diesel engines need the friction for their valve train to function properly. The moly used in well formulated oils is not a solid and is not corrsive.

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What kind are they, general type:
18-wheelers? Industrial? naturalGAS? over "X"H.P.?

 

[buster]

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Each analysis shows basically the same results: excessive wear metal content, low tbn value, excessive oxidation percentage and Molybdenum levels which are "over range". These results would seem to indicate that after a fairly short oil drain interval the Red Line Oil used in each of these applications is showing unacceptable levels of oil degradation, and the Polyolester base stock seems to be reacting negatively with the aluminum and lead materials in the engine.

In addition, the "over range" Molybdenum levels indicate that Red Line may be using a solid extreme pressure additive in its oils. Although this may be useful (but is not necessary with top-quality basestocks) in racing applications where metal components of an engine may be more likely to come in contact with each other, it is not necessary in a passenger car engine and can actually be harmful to the engine. This would make sense, otherwise there would be no reason for the lab to indicate the levels of Molybdenum to be "over range".

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The above quote is claiming that Redline uses too much Moly and that it can be harmfull to engines. Does anyone think the levels of Moly Redline uses are detrimental to regular cars? Redline has an article of how their oils actually work better the more you use them. In other words, it takes a few times (as previously stated on this website) for Redline to really start to shine.


edited by request of the author

[ September 07, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[AcuraSLX]

While I am a newbie and uneducated in the field I think RL does a good job in my truck. I do not doubt that D1 and German Castrol will also do a good job but they are unavailable to me. I think there is more than one way to formulate a great oil.
The post about using RL for 6 to 9 K drain intervals for minimum wear seems right on the button. RL doesn't advertise this 10-40 for heavy diesel long term use. I suspect that RL and Honda engineers are on the right track with their additive package.

 

[guitargeek]

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This is one reason I am so interested in German Castrol. THe idea of a mass marketed ester based oil with large scale distribution is exciteing. So far none of my AUtozones have had it.

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Ironic. I have about three cases of the stuff sitting on my shelf. I want to scoop it up, but I don't feel that 0w-30 would be a good choice for either vehicle I maintain...

 

[Bror Jace]

buster, back to your original quote, I've seen it before. Unfortunately, that's often the face people see on Amsoil and it contributes to people's skepticism of the brand in general.

I think we've dealt with the moly/corrosion issue before here. Moly disulphide can be corrosive (or at least harsh). MotDC is not.

However, I don't think the Red Line formulation is the stuff for ridiculously long drain intervals ... which I avoid anyway. I'd never go over 10,000 miles, for example, under any circumstances.

--- Bror Jace

 

[buster]

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I think we've dealt with the moly/corrosion issue before here. Moly disulphide can be corrosive (or at least harsh). MotDC is not.

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Exactly, but why has the technical staff at Amsoil state that Moly is bad and can clog up in the engine? They have to be aware of MotDC you would think.....

Unless, over the long drain interval, Moly can be a no no.