Leaky toilet repair

[shortyb]

So I recently replaced the fill and flush valves in my some 20 year old Briggs 1.6g using all Fluidmaster components sourced at the Big Orange Box. Pro series components and everything from screws to gaskets was replaced with new. All surfaces were cleaned and nothing leaked externally when I was done and still doesn't. What I am getting though, is a tiny, intermittent leak inside the bowl. You can see the trace of it causing a small ripple in the still water of the bowl. Tank level is set to previous level and stays put. I have set the bowl fill valve at a little less than half and the bowl fills to the proper level. I do notice that the flush valve has a small amount of water at the base of the overflow tube. Don't know why as I assume that all water should exit the flush valve after flushing. This area is above the tank/base interface and again, don't understand how water stays there unless its a design of this particular brand of toilet. Didn't used to leak like this so I doubt it. Any plumbers out there?

 

[MParr]

I’ve never been a fan of Fluid Master fill valves or flapper valves. I always use Korky or original replacement parts.

 

[hrv]

I’ve never been a fan of Fluid Master fill valves or flapper valves. I always use Korky or original replacement parts.

never had an issue with them....

 

[MParr]

never had an issue with them....

I have.

 

[dbias]

I used to have a lot of rental property and have literally repaired hundreds of toilets and can’t quite understand what you are describing when you say a leak within the tank. Is the float not applying enough pressure to shut the water off? That may explain the water at the base of the bowl fill pipe.
I would not put the tank level at half so proper pressure is pushing the flapper down. Also check and make sure the flapper “ears” are nice and straight on the posts on the side of the flush valve

 

[Passport1]

Didn't used to leak like this so I doubt it. Any plumbers out there?

Not a plumber but had the same issue. You might have a 'ghost flush' problem. If your toilet has no external leak, put a few drops of food coloring into the tank. If you see the toilet bowl turning color you have an internal leak. The only way that happens is if the flush valve is leaking. Water level in the tank will not influence this so you can eliminate the refill mechanism. The culprit will be seal of the flush or flapper valve. I've replaced mine and still had the problem because I didn't install it correctly.

A simple fix but can be perplexing.

 

[GMBoy]

It is probably the flush "flapper" - they probably make it to fit 90% of toilets and your's isn't one of them. I have had this happen with that brand and replacing the flapper with another brand worked. Eye them up and make sure the new matches the old. The dye in the tank trick is perfect for determining this issue.

 

[y_p_w]

I used to have a lot of rental property and have literally repaired hundreds of toilets and can’t quite understand what you are describing when you say a leak within the tank. Is the float not applying enough pressure to shut the water off? That may explain the water at the base of the bowl fill pipe.
I would not put the tank level at half so proper pressure is pushing the flapper down. Also check and make sure the flapper “ears” are nice and straight on the posts on the side of the flush valve

There can be tiny little leaks, where eventually the level will drop down until the fill valve starts filling again.

If everything is new, it shouldn't leak. I'm wondering what the setup is though. Fluidmaster has a variety of flappers and fill valves, although I think the flappers are universally rigid with a seal now. Lavelle pretty much only has one-piece flappers made out of a single piece of rubber. I'm quite familiar with their OEM versions made for Kohler.

 

[shortyb]

I’ve never been a fan of Fluid Master fill valves or flapper valves. I always use Korky or original replacement parts.

Funny, I tried Fluidmaster this time because the Korky stuff would give up the ghost so quick. Fill valves would leak and run-on. They were always loud on fill too. Flappers were the only piece that seemed to last. Briggs OE ballcock and flush valve were garbage and no way I'd get them as replacement.

 

[Elkins45]

I changed the leaking flapper in one of our toilets a year or so ago and it hasn’t flushed worth a darn since. I have no idea how just the flapper could make such a difference, but I’m going to remove the tank and replace the entire flush valve mechanism. There are some new designs that really improve how forcefully they flush.

 

[MParr]

I changed the leaking flapper in one of our toilets a year or so ago and it hasn’t flushed worth a darn since. I have no idea how just the flapper could make such a difference, but I’m going to remove the tank and replace the entire flush valve mechanism. There are some new designs that really improve how forcefully they flush.

That can happen when the chain is too long and it’s not opening the flapper fully.

 

[shortyb]

Well, may have solved this little mystery. Double checked everything, Flush valve is sealing properly, flapper is sealing and working properly, high enough water level to apply correct pressure to shut off fill valve etc. Sat and watched it for a while and noticed the water in tank would drop and cause the fill valve to open. Flushed the toilet, watched again. No refill this time, and no ripple in the bowl, ie; no leaks. So this is why I said the problem was intermittent. What I did discover though, was the bowl refill hose from the fill valve into the overflow tube reached all the way down to where the water I noticed at the bottom was. I could see that water was still entering the tube even though the fill valve had shut off. Turned water supply off and still saw the trickle into the bowl. Pulled the hose out of the overflow tube and the trickle stopped. Seems the hose was allowing a back siphon of tank water up through the fill valve and back down the hose into the overflow tube. Once enough water was siphoned, it would travel down the flush valve downstream of the flapper and trickle into the bowl. When enough water in the tank siphoned out, the water level dropped and fill valve was activated again. Obviously a design flaw of the fill valve to allow a back siphon. But once I trimmed enough of the hose off to keep it out of the little pool of water at the bottom of the flush valve, no more siphon and no more leaks into the bowl. Glad I have all of this time now with retirement to figure this stuff out .

 

[shortyb]

That can happen when the chain is too long and it’s not opening the flapper fully.

Yeah, and the Fluidmaster has this fancy flapper where you can adjust how long it stays open to control water per flush. I may pitch this and put in a plain ole one piece Korky. Never had issues with these. Chain length is definatey one of those critical adjustments for proper flushing

 

[y_p_w]

Well, may have solved this little mystery. Double checked everything, Flush valve is sealing properly, flapper is sealing and working properly, high enough water level to apply correct pressure to shut off fill valve etc. Sat and watched it for a while and noticed the water in tank would drop and cause the fill valve to open. Flushed the toilet, watched again. No refill this time, and no ripple in the bowl, ie; no leaks. So this is why I said the problem was intermittent. What I did discovered though, was the bowl refill hose from the fill valve into the overflow tube reached all the way down to where the water I noticed at the bottom was. I could see that water was still entering the tube even though the fill valve had shut off. Turned water supply off and still saw the trickle into the bowl. Pulled the hose out of the overflow tube and the trickle stopped. Seems the hose was allowing a back siphon of tank water up through the fill valve and back down the hose into the overflow tube. Once enough water was siphoned, it would travel down the flush valve downstream of the flapper and trickle into the bowl. When enough water in the tank siphoned out, the water level dropped and fill valve was activated again. Obviously a design flaw of the fill valve to allow a back siphon. But once I trimmed enough of the hose off to keep it out of the little pool of water at the bottom of the flush valve, no more siphon and no more leaks into the bowl. Glad I have all of this time now with retirement to figure this stuff out .

That? That's supposed to have a clip that attaches to the top of the overflow. If it drops below, the there's enough of a siphon for water to leak.

 

[y_p_w]

It is probably the flush "flapper" - they probably make it to fit 90% of toilets and your's isn't one of them. I have had this happen with that brand and replacing the flapper with another brand worked. Eye them up and make sure the new matches the old. The dye in the tank trick is perfect for determining this issue.

There are a lot of weird flappers out there now. I've got an American Standard toilet with a 3" Fluidmaster 510A flapper. It's all hard plastic except for the silicone sealing ring. Kohler used some really bizarre ones, like the shark fin and one that has a foam disc inside the flapper. Some toilets use a flush tower now.

It might be really tough to find any new toilets with a traditional 2" flapper that would have previously been the "universal" size. They mostly use wider flappers that allow for water to enter faster, but then rigged to allow less water use. My 1.3 gallon per flush toilet works great. The tank might hold about 3 gallons, but the whole thing is meant to only dump about 1.3 gallon each time. Part of it is the greater potential energy from the top of the water level being higher.

 

[shortyb]

That? That's supposed to have a clip that attaches to the top of the overflow. If it drops below, the there's enough of a siphon for water to leak.

No clip with the FM and didn't realize the hose was that long to reach all the way to the bottom of the overflow tube. Clipped a good 4 inches off and viola.

 

[JGmazda]

Well, may have solved this little mystery. Double checked everything, Flush valve is sealing properly, flapper is sealing and working properly, high enough water level to apply correct pressure to shut off fill valve etc. Sat and watched it for a while and noticed the water in tank would drop and cause the fill valve to open. Flushed the toilet, watched again. No refill this time, and no ripple in the bowl, ie; no leaks. So this is why I said the problem was intermittent. What I did discover though, was the bowl refill hose from the fill valve into the overflow tube reached all the way down to where the water I noticed at the bottom was. I could see that water was still entering the tube even though the fill valve had shut off. Turned water supply off and still saw the trickle into the bowl. Pulled the hose out of the overflow tube and the trickle stopped. Seems the hose was allowing a back siphon of tank water up through the fill valve and back down the hose into the overflow tube. Once enough water was siphoned, it would travel down the flush valve downstream of the flapper and trickle into the bowl. When enough water in the tank siphoned out, the water level dropped and fill valve was activated again. Obviously a design flaw of the fill valve to allow a back siphon. But once I trimmed enough of the hose off to keep it out of the little pool of water at the bottom of the flush valve, no more siphon and no more leaks into the bowl. Glad I have all of this time now with retirement to figure this stuff out .

Wow.... I am going through the same issues with mine! What a timely thread. I'll check mine based on your observations. Thank you!

 

[shortyb]

There are a lot of weird flappers out there now. I've got an American Standard toilet with a 3" Fluidmaster 510A flapper. It's all hard plastic except for the silicone sealing ring. Kohler used some really bizarre ones, like the shark fin and one that has a foam disc inside the flapper. Some toilets use a flush tower now.

It might be really tough to find any new toilets with a traditional 2" flapper that would have previously been the "universal" size. They mostly use wider flappers that allow for water to enter faster, but then rigged to allow less water use. My 1.3 gallon per flush toilet works great. The tank might hold about 3 gallons, but the whole thing is meant to only dump about 1.3 gallon each time. Part of it is the greater potential energy from the top of the water level being higher.

And exactly the reason for replacing our most used toilet with an American Standard pressure assist toilet. Just make sure the flange seal is sturdy enough to handle the increased flush pressure.

 

[Warstud]

That can happen when the chain is too long and it’s not opening the flapper fully.

Also when the chain is to long it can lay over the tank hole after flushing and the flapper will shut over it and wont seal properly

 

[Hall]

No clip with the FM and didn't realize the hose was that long to reach all the way to the bottom of the overflow tube. Clipped a good 4 inches off and viola.

I've bought Fluidmaster and Korky parts just based on what store I ended up at. I'm 99% certain Fluidmaster includes that clip.