Landing an passenger Jet in the arctic
- Thread starter wpod
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Isn't it like -80 at 40,000 feet? Landing at -40 shouldn't be too hard.
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I'd think the runway conditions not quite like they are at most other airports.
Because of the polar bears?
They are landing on ice. I now it has been done for decades , but how is the plane stopped on the ice? the thrust reversers?
Even or especially in the arctic I would think they have snow plows, unless you mean some remote unpaved air field.
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Not sure of this runway but I've seen some shows where there ain't no pavement!
In the video, it said that they did special preparations for the runway area… Which I would imagine was some texturizing of the surface so it's not like black ice.
Plus, the runway was over 9000 feet long; plenty of room to stop that airplane even without breakinIn the video, it said that they did special preparations for the runway area… Which I would imagine was some texturizing of the surface so it's not like black ice.
Plus, the runway was over 9000 feet long; plenty of room to stop that airplane even without braking (at the correct weight)
Also as noted, the tough part is actually spotting the runway as it looks like everything else around it until you get close enough to discern the difference.
But the single largest factor in that flight is the weather;Do you have to be just right for them to launch and then they have to make a decision halfway there whether to continue or not… If it was fogged in with no instrument landing system they were in a bad bad situation… But from the video you will see that it was crystal clear when they landed.
Our Gulfstream G600 has specific published limits, of various types. But in the end, -40 seems to be a fairly hard limit. If oil temp is below that number, (such as -45c) we are told the engine's computers may not allow a start. I have to wonder about the validity of such claims, as operators would be really annoyed if the thing won't go because the temp is low. We've been told such things before and they turn out to be less than accurate.
In any case, we've operated in Ancorage in the wintertime in years past. Landing on an icy runway is not really the problem, but taxiing off of it is. Despite our best efforts to turn the nose wheels, use RH engine thrust and LH engine reverse thrust, we were unable to do anything but go straight. It took a lot of effort, a special tug, and a few slip-n-falls to get us off the runway.
There comes a point at which it's just not worth the effort.
One big issue that is front and center (right now, as in today) is that the engine's fan can ice up and fail to rotate. We have ice shedding procedures (running the engine to 60% fan RPM for 2 mins) that need to be performed every 10 minutes. But when parked, it does not take long for snow/ice to melt, settle at the bottom of the fan case, and freeze up. Failure to notice this has already resulted in 2 scrapped G600 engines.....
In any case, we've operated in Ancorage in the wintertime in years past. Landing on an icy runway is not really the problem, but taxiing off of it is. Despite our best efforts to turn the nose wheels, use RH engine thrust and LH engine reverse thrust, we were unable to do anything but go straight. It took a lot of effort, a special tug, and a few slip-n-falls to get us off the runway.
There comes a point at which it's just not worth the effort.
One big issue that is front and center (right now, as in today) is that the engine's fan can ice up and fail to rotate. We have ice shedding procedures (running the engine to 60% fan RPM for 2 mins) that need to be performed every 10 minutes. But when parked, it does not take long for snow/ice to melt, settle at the bottom of the fan case, and freeze up. Failure to notice this has already resulted in 2 scrapped G600 engines.....
Here is a pic of me doing a fan inspection today. The fan is 4 feet in diameter and is a single part. No removable blades.
The airport in Inuvik, NWT is paved but scraped down to hard ice and snow. The landings are done with 737’s at what ever temp it happens to be. There is nowhere else to go.
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Never landed under those conditions.
Altimetry is a problem in extremely cold temperatures. You have to make corrections to what is displayed, because the values are distorted by the density of the cold air.
Don't know that Airbus is better or worse than Boeing. Alaska airlines flies in equally cold conditions and uses both.
It's more about accurately predicting weather, calculating performance (both stopping and takeoff) and crew training than which machine they chose to operate.
I am more interested in the plane taking off. Those A343 aircraft are really slow to get up to speed. I am assuming a light load but wonder if the temperatures would have a effect?
I have been on several flights on a 343 going from SFO to MNL. The planes were usually full and the takeoff took forever. On the 28’s at SFO we would be well past the intersection before takeoff. Those flights were long too. The 747’s were much faster.
I have been on several flights on a 343 going from SFO to MNL. The planes were usually full and the takeoff took forever. On the 28’s at SFO we would be well past the intersection before takeoff. Those flights were long too. The 747’s were much faster.
All else being equal low temps mean low density altitude which means improved performance. I'd guess that noise abatement isn't a bit issue in Antarctica either so there shouldn't be any issues there.
I'm guessing here but I think the biggest problem would be with the temperature of certain fluids. Given that planes operate in colder conditions at altitude I'd say you'd run into issues if you shut down the airplane for any length of time and let it cold soak. Tires might be an issue as well as they might get cold at altitude but would be warmed up somewhat by airflow prior to landing under normal conditions. That said, it gets down to -40 in Edmonton and they don't shut down the airport.
The engine lube oil and jet fuel are used to cool various hot parts of the engine, so both can be so viscous at low temp to prevent starting. The hydraulic fluid is also self heated, not to the degree engine oil is, but still a cold overnight start has to have some effect. There are so many variations that a blanket statement is not possible. So it depends.
It's amazing how long it takes for many of these longer flights to get up to takeoff speed. The takeoff roll on this A-340 from hot and humid Singapore to New York starts at 0:44 in the video. They don't lift off until 1:42. Almost a full minute. That's a long time to get all of that metal, people, and baggage into the air..... Not to mention what amounts to a swimming pool full of Kerosene.
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