Lake Speed Jr. Tribologist discusses 0W8 motor oil

[K24Z7&M20AFXS]

There is always wear. How much is the determinant.

True. The fact is how do you test it? If i test both 0w8 and 5w30 with the same additives in an old Chrysler Neon engine, the 5w30 is almost guaranteed to give better results. It's an old school engine that specced 5w30 or perhaps even 10w30. If you test both those oils in a brand new Corolla engine, how do we know the 0w8 won't give the best redults?

Catch my drift?

It was said that 5w30 was tested against a 0w16 or 0w8 and was best? In what conditions? With what type of engine? What temperature... etc..

I say in what conditions because, i mean, if i was racing the Prius all day everyday, i'd probably put some 0w20 and call it a day. But for commuting.. i think 0w16 and maybe 0w8 will do allright.

 

[ZeeOSix]

There is always more potential for added wear with a thinner HTHS viscosity. Viscosity and the resulting MOFT between moving parts is the main factor that prevents metal-to-metal contact and resulting wear - it's simple Tribology. More HTHS viscosity gives added MOFT and therefore added wear protection. HTHS of around 2.5-2.6 cP and below is where additional engine design aspects need to be done to handle oil's thinner than that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

True. The fact is how do you test it? If i test both 0w8 and 5w30 with the same additives in an old Chrysler Neon engine, the 5w30 is almost guaranteed to give better results.

Look for the thread were someone ran some Redline "0W5" race oil in their turboed Navigator that specs 5W-30.

 

[K24Z7&M20AFXS]

Look for the thread were someone ran some Redline "0W5" race oil in their turboed Navigator that specs 5W-30.

Will do right now! Sounds like fun!

 

[PontiacHO]

The vast majority argue against thin oil / long intervals and give ZERO technical arguments. All too often they're just repeating things others said (with no technical arguments there either). Plenty of examples of Toyota owners/engines following the spec'd oil (0W-20 and lower) being changed every 10k miles and they still last 200k+ miles while some claim a conspiracy that the automakers only want to squeak by the warranty time.

BITOG participants are a rain drop in the ocean when it comes to the vast majority of vehicle owners. 99.9% of vehicle owners barely keep up with even the built in oil reminders in their respective vehicles. They really could care less about motor oil. Most of the general public have their oil changed (when it’s changed) and never care what oil they are getting. Their car engines will survive much longer than they care to keep the vehicle. I’m one that cares to the point of changing oil at 6k with quality synthetic oil and worries about the slightest tick. Not sure I’ve used my worries wisely. I doubt it really makes much of difference with modern vehicles to maintain rigid intervals with top shelf products. This proves out daily….

 

[The Critic]

BITOG participants are a rain drop in the ocean when it comes to the vast majority of vehicle owners. 99.9% of vehicle owners barely keep up with even the built in oil reminders in their respective vehicles. They really could care less about motor oil. Most of the general public have their oil changed (when it’s changed) and never care what oil they are getting. Their car engines will survive much longer than they care to keep the vehicle. I’m one that cares to the point of changing oil at 6k with quality synthetic oil and worries about the slightest tick. Not sure I’ve used my worries wisely. I doubt it really makes much of difference with modern vehicles to maintain rigid intervals with top shelf products. This proves out daily….

This.

 

[kschachn]

Will do right now! Sounds like fun!

Why one would perform a "fun" test with an expensive vehicle is a bit beyond me. Especially when there is no way that person could ever make a valid analysis of their experiment.

 

[Astro_Guy]

I am curious as to why a 2023 Corolla recommends 0w-8 whereas my son's 2023 Prius recommends 0w-16. Don't they both employ the same 2 liter engine? Wouldn't one expect a hybrid drive train to be easier on the oil vs a traditional ICE drive train?

 

[TiGeo]

I am curious as to why a 2023 Corolla recommends 0w-8 whereas my son's 2023 Prius recommends 0w-16. Don't they both employ the same 2 liter engine? Wouldn't one expect a hybrid drive train to be easier on the oil vs a traditional ICE drive train?

I believe the hybrid drivetrain actually is a bit harder on oil than a regular ICE and that's the likely reason. I would like to think the fine engineers at Toyota understand how this all works and recommend oil viscosity/certs/approvals/etc. based on engineering.

 

[Astro_Guy]

I would like to think the fine engineers at Toyota understand how this all works and recommend oil viscosity/certs/approvals/etc. based on engineering.

Yeah - it's hard to argue that point. Nevertheless it would be informative to know the assumptions that went into that recommendation. It seems as if they may be factoring in short runs and low oil temperature. That makes a lot of sense in Japan. One has to wonder if 0w-16 would or wouldn't be just fine in a use case where the oil does routinely get warm enough long enough to burn off fuel dilution.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah - it's hard to argue that point. Nevertheless it would be informative to know the assumptions that went into that recommendation. It seems as if they may be factoring in short runs and low oil temperature. That makes a lot of sense in Japan. One has to wonder if 0w-16 would or wouldn't be just fine in a use case where the oil does routinely get warm enough long enough to burn off fuel dilution.

You’re wondering if a 16-grade oil would be fine in a vehicle where an 8-grade is recommended?

 

[Astro_Guy]

You’re wondering if a 16-grade oil would be fine in a vehicle where an 8-grade is recommended?

No - I am wondering if I could go thinner on a 2023 Prius that calls for 0w-16. I plan to pull an oil sample when it approaches 50k or a presumed 2300 miles on the oil that it came with. The major use case here is five miles each way to and from work which means that fuel dilution should be monitored. The current plan is to change to HPL Premium Plus but I have since noticed from UOAs how this oil actually thickens up over time. This appears to be something worth revisiting 20k miles down the road on HPL.

 

[OVERKILL]

I am curious as to why a 2023 Corolla recommends 0w-8 whereas my son's 2023 Prius recommends 0w-16. Don't they both employ the same 2 liter engine? Wouldn't one expect a hybrid drive train to be easier on the oil vs a traditional ICE drive train?

I believe the assumption is likely that the hybrid will fuel dilute the oil more than the non-hybrid, thinning the oil, hence the higher starting grade.

 

[kschachn]

No - I am wondering if I could go thinner on a 2023 Prius that calls for 0w-16. I plan to pull an oil sample when it approaches 50k or a presumed 2300 miles on the oil that it came with. The major use case here is five miles each way to and from work which means that fuel dilution should be monitored. The current plan is to change to HPL Premium Plus but I have since noticed from UOAs how this oil actually thickens up over time. This appears to be something worth revisiting 20k miles down the road on HPL.

Are you really that interested in the truly small fuel consumption decrease? That’s the only advantage.

 

[CarlB]

I'd also imagine the hybrid doesn't need a 0w8 to hit MPG goals. Where the non hybrid needs every advantage it can get.

 

[Azimuth]

I believe the hybrid drivetrain actually is a bit harder on oil than a regular ICE and that's the likely reason. I would like to think the fine engineers at Toyota understand how this all works and recommend oil viscosity/certs/approvals/etc. based on engineering.

I believe the assumption is likely that the hybrid will fuel dilute the oil more than the non-hybrid, thinning the oil, hence the higher starting grade.

The Grand Highlander Hybrid now also recommends 0W-8, whereas the Highlander Hybrid with the same engine recommends 0W-16. My guess is that they will update the manual for the Highlander Hybrid when they refresh it to also call for 0W-8.

 

[Bkdc]

The Grand Highlander Hybrid recommends 0W-8, whereas the Highlander Hybrid with the same engine recommends 0W-16. My guess is that they will update the manual for the Highlander Hybrid when they refresh it to also call for 0W-8.

There is absolutely no change in the drivetrain. A new year, a new CAFE target that needs to be met. It’s PURELY driven by government targets and has nothing to do with any modification of the drivetrain. Even a 0.2% improvement in fuel efficiency might be worth it for Toyota. The targets are just eye opening. I don’t think hybrids can get any more efficient without adding a more powerful battery-driven electric engine. We are approaching peak efficiency. Stick to 0w-16 and the protection the HTHS of 2.3 gives over the HTSH of 1.8 for 0w-8.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/n...4_jTY_s-XmO9VZiMMY_aem_1OzYkr7xG5CXjuk4yONw8Q

 

[OVERKILL]

The Grand Highlander Hybrid now also recommends 0W-8, whereas the Highlander Hybrid with the same engine recommends 0W-16. My guess is that they will update the manual for the Highlander Hybrid when they refresh it to also call for 0W-8.

Guess we'll see if they change it. The Grand Highlander might get the oil a bit warmer, but that may not matter.

 

[HowAboutThis]

So, what I'm hearing is, I shouldn't have switched to 75w-90 weight oil in my Forester and Corolla? It was handy because then I can use the same one for the engine and Subaru differentials.

I thought thicker was better?

*If it's not obvious I'm joking, you spend too much time on here*

I have a feeling most oils recommended by manufacturers in most typical conditions will work fine. But that's just my feeling.

 

[kschachn]

So, what I'm hearing is, I shouldn't have switched to 75w-90 weight oil in my Forester and Corolla? It was handy because then I can use the same one for the engine and Subaru differentials.

I thought thicker was better?

*If it's not obvious I'm joking, you spend too much time on here*

I have a feeling most oils recommended by manufacturers in most typical conditions will work fine. But that's just my feeling.

What is that, about a 40-grade motor oil?

Wrong additives though.