K&N vs M1 media permeability data

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quote:

Originally posted by unDummy:
Went to Kmart today and bought 3 Mobil1 oil filters for my car for $.75 each. Too bad they didn't have more. Find me a better filter for $.75!
Penske/Castrol were about $.40-$1. Grabbed some of those too
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And I'll agree with the pessimists out there:
Is there a "frazier oil permeability test"?
And, how did you test the Mobil1 media to conclude that it was 85/15 blend of cellulose and synthetic(whatever synth means)?


I thought K Mart was doing ok now
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...why are they still giving stuff away?I'm staying with the Mobil filters on one of my vehicles and trying the Bosch Premium on the other...just have to change something before I get to hum-drum
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quote:

Originally posted by ShootingStar:
WOAH! So the test is saying that the K & N flows about 4 times better than the M1? Since these two filters SEEM to be on the extreme ends of the filtration spectrum for OTC filters, I wonder what a "normal/average" filter would look like. In other words, is the M1 too restrictive or is the K & N passing too much junk?

Greetings everyone. I'm a fist time poster here on this board. I was directed via link from another board on this discussion. I like what I see, lots of test data here to draw conclusions with. I just wanted to make one point about using air to perform this test. The ratio of flow from one filter to the other (over 4:1) using air will not be the same with oil. The flow comparision will be MUCH closer if the correct fluid was used for this test. The thinner the fluid (lower viscocity), the larger the difference will be between the two filters. Air is much less viscous than oil and the results are inconclusive as presented regarding how much more flow the K&N filter will provide over the M1. An analysis can be done to convert the flow rates to oil using fluid mechanic techniques. I'll give it a go later today if my headeache goes away.
 
quote:

Originally posted by ShootingStar:
WOAH! So the test is saying that the K & N flows about 4 times better than the M1? Since these two filters SEEM to be on the extreme ends of the filtration spectrum for OTC filters, I wonder what a "normal/average" filter would look like. In other words, is the M1 too restrictive or is the K & N passing too much junk?

4 times the pressure drop doesn't mean 4 times the flow. The pressure drop is a function of the fluid velocity raised to some power.
 
What I see so far is an indication that the M1 filter media flows less (albeit one test against only one competitor). Second indication from another thread is that the bypass may open at a relatively low pressure compared to other filters. Third strike is the evidence presented by Bob on his results against a Fram no less. These things combined are starting to indicate that this filter may not be doing it's job very well. Pure speculation based on some circumstantial evidence, but there hasn't been a lot of data to indicate otherwise at this point in time.
 
quote:

Originally posted by unDummy:
...And, how did you test the Mobil1 media to conclude that it was 85/15 blend of cellulose and synthetic(whatever synth means)?...

Synthetic is polyester as stated above by me and Terry. Also determined composition by simple microscopic and physical examination. I don't know exact percentage that is why I said "about". But that is the most common ratio. I know because I look at air filters all day. That is my job.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 20HAWK02:
...An analysis can be done to convert the flow rates to oil using fluid mechanic techniques. I'll give it a go later today if my headeache goes away.

That would be awesome...Let us know the results.
 
These things combined are starting to indicate that this filter may not be doing it's job very well. Pure speculation based on some circumstantial evidence, but there hasn't been a lot of data to indicate otherwise at this point in time.

Nor are there convincing data to indicate the contrary.
 
I think the burden of proof is on the Mobil 1 oil filter because it is a much more expensive option. We already know the cheaper filters work; Mobil 1 should show us some evidence their filter works better to justify it's cost.
 
Of course, there is the developing school of thought, as well, that holds that any filter works. How well is what we don't know, whether Fram or Mobil1.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Americanflag:
I think the burden of proof is on the Mobil 1 oil filter because it is a much more expensive option. We already know the cheaper filters work; Mobil 1 should show us some evidence their filter works better to justify it's cost.

You could say the exact thing about M1 oil.

Mobil doesn't need to prove anything to sell oil or filters. They market it and people buy it.
 
If mobil1 put out test data, people wouldn't believe it so why do it. I prefer to get my data from unbiased third parties or run the tests myself. I wish I could get hold of the parts to make me a test stand.

Air is not the same thing as oil. We should not consider this viable data. The differences will be much smaller like was stated before. I would hate to think about what the filtering efficiency was on a filter that let 4x the flow through.
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Let me point out the unobvious here. unlike air, liquid will cause the oil flow in a filter to re-act differently.

Try this, Take a brand new m1 filter, cut it open. take a jar wide enough for the filter media to be placed in.. pour oil into the can/jar, then with the filter, with the closed end down so no oil can pass into the middle except through the filter media, put it into the oil and watch just how long it takes for the oil to pass through the media before it levels out in the middle with the outside.

The point I have to make is, it will absorb a bunch of oil into the media before the oil will or can pass through the media and level out. The media is like a sponge, as it becomes wet, it will expand the media surface therefore making it "more effecient" if you may due to the fact the media itself is expanding as it absorbs the fluids. This in itself would negate any kind of flow data used with air since different types of media would absorb and expand in different levels creating a closer nit making it harder to pass fluid through.

This is why joee and I have been getting together to build a test jig up and we are getting closer to having all the parts together so we can follow through with actual oil flow, pressure drops and such with heated oil and such. I've been thinking also that we could after doing all the basic oil flow testing with clean oil, that we then could measure the oil filters wieght while full, and see if we could use a premeasured amount of "dirt" of some sort to inject into the system and run for a pre determined period of time and then remove and measure the wieght giving us a basic idea of filtration effectivness.

The more I see on these threads the more ideas i'm seeing to impliment. This will mean it will take some time to go through all of this but I myself am very interested in what we can show on this and the more it is coming together the more excited I'm getting.
 
quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
This is why joee and I have been getting together to build a test jig up and we are getting closer to having all the parts together so we can follow through with actual oil flow, pressure drops and such with heated oil and such. I've been thinking also that we could after doing all the basic oil flow testing with clean oil, that we then could measure the oil filters wieght while full, and see if we could use a premeasured amount of "dirt" of some sort to inject into the system and run for a pre determined period of time and then remove and measure the wieght giving us a basic idea of filtration effectivness.

The more I see on these threads the more ideas i'm seeing to impliment. This will mean it will take some time to go through all of this but I myself am very interested in what we can show on this and the more it is coming together the more excited I'm getting.


I'm sure many members here are anxious to see some feedback on you and joee's flow experimentation.
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