JASO revises standard effective 2016

[RedVic]

Most people don't know when standards for oils have been changed, in the automotive world the API lowered the amount of Phosphorus and Zinc that can be in the oil several years ago, that is not a problem if you are running a modern engine as most engines today are roller cam style valve trains or they are overhead cam style valve trains both of which do not put the same friction load on the valve train as a flat tappet cam/valve train does.

We all know that there were many cam/lifter failures when people used the new API spec oils in flat tappet style engines, while not every flat tappet engine will suffer a cam/lifter failure there were still many that did fail. The cam lobe and lifter contact point is one of the worst lubricated areas in an engine because they are exposed yet they are also the highest load bearing friction point in the engine. It is no wonder so many flat tappet cam/lifters failed when using the newer API spec oils with Phosphorus and Zinc levels reduced down to 800 to 1200 PPM. It is recommended that a flat tappet style cam/lifter have at least 1500 PPM of Phosphorus and Zinc for proper protection. The oil companies say that as long as the older flat tappet engines have stock valve springs in them they should be protected, but if you have a performance or heavy duty valve spring than the API spec of 800 PPM to 1200 PPM of Phosphorus and Zinc is not adequate and can/will lead to flat tappet cam and lifter failure.

In 2016 JASO the Japanese standard used for motorcycle oils changed their specs lowering the amount of Phosphorus and Zinc down to 800 PPM to 1200 PPM, again on must modern motorcycle engines this won't pose a problem because they are overhead cam style valve trains and the load friction will tolerate the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc levels in the new JASO standard.

The problem comes in on those motorcycle engines that use a flat tappet style cam and valve train, one such motorcycle is the new 2018 Yamaha Star Venture and Eluder motorcycles with the revised 1854 CC V-Twin engines. These engines are using a flat tappet style cam/lifter valve train so the load friction is greater than overhead cam style valve trains. This should be a concern because the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc levels may result in cam/lifter failure in this engine.

There are three documented cases of cam/lifter failure with this new Yamaha 1854 CC V-Twin already, how many more there may be is unknown unless the owner posts to a website to document the failure. Of those three one suffered cam/lifter wear failure by the 3,400 mile mark, the second cam/lifter wear failure was between 7,000 miles and 8,000 miles and the third failure the mileage is not known except that it was under 7,000 miles when that cam/lifter wear failure occurred. The engine that failed between the 7,000 and 8,000 mile mark was documented as using Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil up to the failure. The other two engines it is unknown what oil they where using when the failure occurred.

The Yamaha 1854 CC V-Twin uses a flat tappet style cam/lifter valve train and one cam lobe, one lifter, one push rod and one rocker arm operating two valves and two valve springs on the four valve heads, that increases the load friction placed upon the cam lobe and lifter. With the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc of between 800 PPM and 1200 PPM in the JASO certified oils from 2016 forward I am of the opinion that the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) is the cause of these early cam/lifter load wear failures on those three engines.

I own a 2018 Yamaha Star Venture with the 1854 CC V-Twin but after the break-in period (first 1,000 miles per manual) I changed out the Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil to full synthetic oil, the first synthetic oil I used was a short run on Redline 20w-50 to continue flushing out the wear in metals and then changed to Yamalube 15w-50 full synthetic with ester and ran that oil to the 4,000 mile service where I switched over to Redline 10w-40 synthetic oil and have run the 10w-40 Redline motorcycle oil since. My used oil reports have come back showing good wear numbers with Phosphorus and Zinc over 1500 PPM which is the recommended minimum amount of Phosphorus and Zinc to protect a flat tappet style cam and valve train that is high performance. Knowing this cam/lifter/push rod/rocker arm has to operate two valves and two valve springs on the four valve heads I feel that would be equivalent to a high performance or heavy duty valve spring.

This is just a heads up about the new JASO standard that reduced the amount of Phosphorus and Zinc to 800 PPM to 1200 PPM in the new 2016 JASO standard in case you are running an engine with a flat tappet style cam/valve train. You may want to look for a motorcycle oil that has more Phosphorus and Zinc than the 2016 JASO standard allows to protect that flat tappet cam and valve train.

You will have to check the specs of the oil you are interested in, I am running Redline Synthetic 10w-40 motorcycle oil because the specs show it has an average of 2100 PPM of Phosphorus and 2125 PPM of Zinc, both more than sufficient to protect a flat tappet style valve train.

 

[blupupher]

Is their any "aftermarket" zinc and Phosphorus additives out there?

I should be safe with my 1100 Shadow (hydraulic OHV engine), but who knows what I will own in the future.

 

[SuperSalad]

This has already been discussed many times.

The phosphorus limit has not changed since 2006. All three iterations (2006, 2011, and 2016) have all had a 1200 ppm phosphorus limit.

If this were truly a cause for concern, there would be product recalls, not three "documented" cases on the internet that assume the failures were caused by the oil.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted by blupupher
Is their any "aftermarket" zinc and Phosphorus additives out there?

I should be safe with my 1100 Shadow (hydraulic OHV engine), but who knows what I will own in the future.

Yes, there are many products like that.

There is an entire sub-forum full of discussions about aftermarket additives including many about ZDDP based ones.

OTC and Third Party Oil Additives

 

[kschachn]

This seems more like another promotion of Redline oils by this poster than anything else.

 

[RedVic]

Originally Posted by MotoTribologist
If this were truly a cause for concern, there would be product recalls, not three "documented" cases on the internet that assume the failures were caused by the oil.


How many motorcycles use a flat tappet style cam valve train, that would easily explain why their are not a lot of documented cases. I was unaware that they made the change as far back as 2006, but then again I have always ran oils with high Phosphorus and Zinc contents. That still does not change the fact a flat tappet system such as on this new Yamaha may need the higher levels of Phosphorus and Zinc than the JASO standard allows.

Oil companies have always been quick to disagree their reduced Phosphorus and Zinc content oils were the cause of any flat tappet cam/lifter failures only admitting that a performance cam/valve spring or heavy duty valve spring would result in cam/lifter failure in a flat tappet system with the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc content oils. In all of that there has aways been one answer that always worked to protect those same flat tappet cams and lifters and was making sure the oil you used contained at least 1500 PPM of Phosphorus and Zinc.

New model motorcycle with an engine that has been redesigned and three known documented cases of cam/lifter scaring/failure, sure you can ignore them and hope for the best or you can make sure what ever brand oil you want to run has Phosphorus and Zinc counts above 1500 PPM. For whatever reason Yamaha decided to go with a flat tappet cam and valve train on this new motorcycle a system that has to activate two valves and two valve springs via one cam lobe, one lifter, one push rod and one rocker arm, that ups the load friction on the cam lobe and lifter.

kschachn, I have no involvement with Redline oil company outside that I use their products. I think I was pretty clear in the post saying what ever brand of oil you choose to run you might want to check the specs and make sure it has 1500 PPM of Phosphorus and Zinc if you have a flat tappet style valve train. There was no push to try and get anyone to use Redline oil in my post. I also said that most engines would not be effected because they are overhead cam style engines.

I don't care what brand of oil anyone chooses to run, be it Amsoil, Royal Purple, Mobil One, Redline or the manufactures own brand for that matter. Three early cam/lifter failures on a new for 2018 model motorcycle is enough to warrant taking a good look at and making a decision on what oils best protect flat tappet style cam/valve trains and that would be oils with a minimum of 1500 PPM of phosphorus and Zinc no matter the brand.

So you see I am not pushing any brand over another, I do personally use Redline in my motorcycles.

 

[alarmguy]

Sorry, I dont buy the whole oil thing.
If true about Yamaha engine failures, its poor engine design, NOT the oil.
Easy to blame the oil by people who own the bikes,problem is, if true, and engines failing, my only question would be if the person is using the oil grade stated in the owners manual.

If so and the person is using the recommended grade oil, then Yamaha messed up with a poorly designed engine, case closed and have it repaired under warranty...

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted by RedVic
Originally Posted by MotoTribologist
If this were truly a cause for concern, there would be product recalls, not three "documented" cases on the internet that assume the failures were caused by the oil.


How many motorcycles use a flat tappet style cam valve train, that would easily explain why their are not a lot of documented cases.


It doesn't matter how many use flat tappet style cam valve trains. The ones you are talking about do. And they have issued recalls on neither the bikes nor the recommended Yamalube due to their flat tappet cam valve trains failing because of improper lubrication.

If and when a recall is issued, we will have evidence of a problem. Until that (or some equally convincing evidence is presented), this concern over JASO's phosphorus limit is anecdotal at the very best.

There are other anti-wear additives out there my friend. Zinc and phosphorus are not the only game in town for reducing wear. Every subsequent API category reduces the allowable wear. Just because one additive type is limited does not mean performance is limited.

 

[RedVic]

MotoTribologist,

Why would there be a recall this soon?

Flat tappet cam lifter failure while using a reduced ZDDP oil is well documented and if you are saying its not then you are being very disingenuous. Do some searches, Here is some information about this issue:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/08/preventing-flat-tappet-cam-failures/

Reducing ZDDP in motor oil does not create a wear problem for engines with roller cams or overhead cams because there is much less friction between the cam and lifters or valve followers than in a flat tappet engine. Oil companies say today's low ZDDP motor oils also provide adequate protection in older engines with flat tappet cams - provided the engine has stock valve springs. But the lower ZDDP levels have often proven to be woefully inadequate in engines with flat tappet performance cams and stiffer valve springs.

The small contact patch between the cam lobes and lifters is the highest pressure point inside the engine. If there is insufficient oil between the cam lobes and lifters and/or the oil lacks sufficient levels of anti-wear additive, the cam lobes and/or lifters may suffer the consequences.

One way to address this issue is to use a ZDDP crankcase additive to add extra anti-wear protection to the oil, or to use a diesel oil, street performance oil or racing oil that contains 1500 ppm or more of ZDDP.

Now I suspect you are going to say the piece I just pasted with the link don't know what they are talking about but the proof is in the lack of ZDDP my oil company friend.

Here is another site that talks about the problem with todays oil and flat tappet cams:


http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/new-tech-bulletin-flat-tappet-camshaft-failures.1/

Lubrication ​

Engine Oil Selection
As we touched on earlier, another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today's engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of the important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend oil with the proper level of "ZDDP", Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification. Recent market trends and misinformation have led to a new and adverse side effect known as "Overloading on ZDDP". When overloading on ZDDP, the additive can actually cause blocking of other important additives, such as friction modifiers or detergent agents. It is imperative that the ZDDP level is carefully specified and blended to correct concentrations.

For you people in the oil industry to deny that there are problems with current oils and flat tappet cam systems is sad.

There is lots of information out there about this issue.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted by RedVic
MotoTribologist,

Why would there be a recall this soon?


Because of the well known and documented failures associated with it according to your assertion.

Originally Posted by RedVic
For you people in the oil industry to deny that there are problems with current oils and flat tappet cam systems is sad.

There is lots of information out there about this issue.


You are asserting something which is not part of this conversation. A lack of anti-wear performance will cause problems in an engine equipped with flat tappet cams. No one is denying that. The denial is that the lack of ZDDP in an oil is the cause of this wear. Yes, if ZDDP is removed from an oil and the performance is not replaced by an alternative anti-wear additive, premature wear will occur. It isn't because there is too little ZDDP though, it is because there is too little anti-wear protection.

You are asserting that ZDDP is the only additive capable of preventing wear in these systems and modern oils are incapable of protecting them because of their decreased ZDDP content and that is simply not true.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by RedVic
How many motorcycles use a flat tappet style cam valve train, that would easily explain why their are not a lot of documented cases. I was unaware that they made the change as far back as 2006, but then again I have always ran oils with high Phosphorus and Zinc contents. That still does not change the fact a flat tappet system such as on this new Yamaha may need the higher levels of Phosphorus and Zinc than the JASO standard allows.

Surely Yamaha's own oil should prevent any problems. After all, they must be very proud of it, given what they charge for it, and Yamaha is free to ignore API or JASO standards for their own product formulated for their own machinery. I've seen OEM snowmobile two stroke oil with zero certs at all.

 

[jeff78]

I'd be more inclined to think that this was a manufacturing problem with the affected cams/lifters (inadequate hardening, perhaps?) than an issue with the oil per se.

What did Yamaha say about the three failures? Surely it would have been covered under warranty considering the low miles on the bikes.

 

[RedVic]

Article from 2007 on the issue of reduced ZDDP in new oil blends:

"Oil is Killing our Cars"
By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596
Oil is Killing our cars Part I
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding
and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals
in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting
to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only
thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct
break in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are
using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an
unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated
oil on flat tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They
continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube.
They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are
needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary.
Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually
available at auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short
discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
"bad news" we have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They
have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in
the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically
for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability
benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by
replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been
required to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
>>
Oil is Killing our cars Part 3
Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.
I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in
the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been
very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our
cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.
Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will
destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We
are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag
and has the additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation"
oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing
pollution.
We don't have catalytic converters (mentioned to a specific group) and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.
For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the
molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and
friction.
This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and
tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat
tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the
surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist
pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly
bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer
to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems;
lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage,
by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.
Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol
20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

 

[RedVic]

http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/photos/FlatTappetCamTech.htm

Engines with flat-tappet cams have extremely high pressure loading at the contact point between the lifter crown and the cam lobe. According to Mark Ferner, team leader for Quaker State Motor Oil Research and Development, "Even stock passenger cars can see pressure in excess of 200,000 psi at the point of flat-tappet/cam lobe contact." To prevent excess wear, traditional motor oil included a generous dose of antiwear additives, primarily zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). "The chemistry is such that the additive is a combination of zinc and phosphorous," says Rockett Racing Fuel's Tim Wusz. "Typically the phosphate amounts are about 75 percent of the zinc amounts. For example, if there was 0.100 percent zinc by weight in the motor oil, then the phosphate is about 0.075."

Ferner adds, "The zinc reacts with the cam lobe's iron surface. That creates a sacrificial chemical coating strong enough to keep parts separated to reduce the wear." Although great for keeping a flat tappet alive, as an engine ages and develops blow-by, some of the additives flow out the exhaust where they can degrade oxygen sensor and catalytic converter performance. Faced with ever more stringent emissions standards and the governmental mandate for extended emissions-control- system warranties, the OEMs got together with the motor oil makers and decided to reduce the amount of ZDDP in street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, they weren't needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers. The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradual process, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protection for older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock, performance cams and valvetrains. And it will only get worse; projected future oil spec revisions will likely reduce ZDDP content even more.

 

[RedVic]

February 2011
Unfortunately Castrol's oils formulations are proprietary information and are not released to the general public. However, we can tell you that the ZDDP levels have been reduced. We DO NOT recommend any of our GTX Dino oils for flat-tappet engines….
Castrol Consumer Relations

I called them to confirm this. They do not recommend any of their dino oils, (including 20w50 and 15w40 Diesel) for our air-cooled engines (or any engine with flat tappets).

November 2008
The lower ZDDP content is not harmful to late model engines with roller lifters or followers because the loads are much lower on the camshaft lobes. But on push rod engines with flat tappet cams, the level of ZDDP may be inadequate to prevent cam lobe and lifter wear. In some cases, cam failures have occurred in as little as a few thousand miles of driving! This is even more of a risk in engines if stiffer valve springs and/or higher lift rocker arms are used.

AA1CAR.Com page2 para2...


https://www.motorists.org/blog/warning-if-you-have-an-older-vehicle-choose-your-oil-carefully/

November 30, 2007 • 0 Comments • Car Care, Eric Peters, Tips

If you own an older car, you might want to think twice about the oil you're using.

In order to comply with federal requirements that key emissions control components on new cars such as catalytic converters last at least 120,000 miles (previously, it was 100,000 miles) automakers have been pushing for reductions in an oil additive known as zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate (ZDDP), which contains phosphorous (as well as zinc and manganese).

The problem for late model emissions-controlled cars is that the phosphorous in ZDDP has been linked with premature catalytic converter failure - or at least, premature loss of converter efficiency.

But the problem for older cars with flat tappet camshafts - which means pretty much all cars built before about the mid-1980s, when roller camshafts began to supplant the flat tappet design - is that oils with low ZDDP levels can cause rapid premature wear, even failure, of flat tappet camshafts. In a nutshell, the ZDDP cushions the high pressure point between the lifter crown and the camshaft lobe, acting as anti-friction, anti-wear barrier.

Running without the ZDDP is almost like running without oil - and with the same results.

Levels of ZDDP in commonly available mainstream motor oils - including big-name brands and high dollar synthetics - have been dropping since the new emissions longevity requirements became effective with the 2004 model year.

Unfortunately, many hobbyists and owners of older cars with flat tappet camshafts are unaware of the changing formulations - and the threat low-ZDDP oils may represent.

The situation is analogous to the days when lead began to disappear from gasoline. Engines that had been designed to burn leaded fuel (especially high-performance engines run at high RPMs) fell victim to premature valve recession caused by the use of unleaded fuel.

WHAT TO DO?

The first thing is to determine whether your vehicle is equipped with a flat tappet camshaft.

If it's an American-brand car older than model year 1980 and the engine is either original or has been rebuilt to original specifications, the odds are virtually 100 percent certain that you have a flat tappet camshaft.
It's also very likely you have one if your car is early-mid 1980s.
By the latter half of the '80s and into the 1990s, roller-style camshafts were becoming the norm - and you are probably safe. But it's important to be sure.

You won't find information on the type of camshaft your vehicle has in your owner's manual.

You'll need to consult a technical service manual - or simply ask someone who is knowledgeable. The service manager at a dealership for your make/model of car ought to know - or should be able to find out.

WHAT TO USE?

There are still a few oils on the market that have adequate levels of ZDDP.

Shell Rotella T which is a conventional (mineral-based) oil that was originally formulated for diesel engines. Rotella T still contains 1,200 parts per million ZDDP, according to Shell - which is as much as five times the amount found in other oils. Don't sweat it that Rotella was/is "for diesels." It's also an excellent choice for older, non-emissions controlled engines with flat tappet cams that need their ZDDP. Rotella's also modestly priced and readily available at most any auto parts store. Shell also markets a synthetic version of Rotella that offers even more protection - as well as longevity and a 5W-40 viscosity for those who operate their vehicles in colder climates. Standard Rotella comes in a heavier 15W-40 blend.
Another choice - in a full synthetic - is Amsoil which carries a line of oils with ZDDP in popular viscosities such as 10W-40 and heavier 20W-50.
Redline oil is also still fine for older engines with flat tappet cams. Unfortunately, both Amsoil and Redline can be hard to find at your local store; but if you plan ahead, you can order a case from any one of multiple suppliers online and just keep a stash on hand.
Another option is additives.

GM used to sell an over the counter Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) that was just what the doctor ordered - and for only about $12 per bottle. Unfortunately, GM stopped making the stuff and it's now very hard to find.

Luckily, Competition Cams does offer something similar - its Engine Break-in Oil Additive. Comp cams used to recommend this for initial break-in but now recommends that it be added with the oil at every oil change.

Here's the skinny from Tech Bulletin 225:

While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from off the shelf oil.
So there you have it.

If you own an older vehicle, you'd be well-advised to give some thought to your next oil change - and what kind of oil you'll be pouring into the crankcase.

This is a guest post by automotive columnist Eric Peters, check him out on the web at www.ericpetersautos.com.

 

[RedVic]

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/03/zddp-when-where-what-why-how/

MAR 26, 2012 12:00 AM


ZDDP: When, Where, What, Why, How?


Dave Sutton,AUTHOR

Government regulations and demands for lower emissions levels become more important than power and performance. Proven components are no longer acceptable and the inevitable changes occur - not always for the best.

Things seemed to be much simpler in the 1930s. Engine bearings were made from a soft tin/copper/antimony alloy, commonly referred to as babbit. This alloy is relatively inert chemically and has the ability to absorb small amounts of foreign particular material. But, as engine horsepower increased, babbit alloy surfaces proved to be inadequate to bear the increased loading on these surfaces.

Harder bearings of cadmium/silver, cadmium/nickel, and copper/lead construction were developed. These bearings were much stronger, but were not as chemically inert as babbit and could be attacked by the acids generated from oil oxidation. They were also unable to absorb foreign material such as grit and wear debris into the bearing material and improvements in oil filtration were developed.

Bearing corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear agents and acid inhibitor compounds were developed to protect these new bearings. Protection for bearings against both corrosive and mechanical wear was needed and many of these compounds served both functions. These compounds included sulfurized sperm oil, organic phosphates, dithiocarbonates and dithiophosphates. In 1941, the oil and gasoline additive company Lubrizol developed Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphates, or ZDDP.

Commonly referred to simply as "Zinc" in today's vernacular. ZDDP was first used in low concentrations (less than .3%) as a bearing passivator (meaning "to treat or coat a metal in order to reduce the chemical reactivity of its surface"). It also acts as an oil anti-oxidant. In addition, it was found to be a remarkably effective anti-wear agent, a true extreme pressure or EP additive for heavily loaded steel-on-steel sliding mechanisms such as camshafts and valve lifters or tappets.

For years, these additives provided sufficient anti-wear service in the early days of gasoline non-detergent motor oils. Diesel engines of the time, which generally operated at lower speeds and were more massively built, did not exhibit the same wear problems. But in a gasoline engine, the valve train is more heavily stressed due to the higher engine speeds.

This produces high sliding speed and friction between camshaft and lifters, which tend to be poorly lubricated since they are dependent on oil splash for lubrication. High impact loads also resulted from the reaction between cam lifter, pushrod, and the rocker.

Impacts in this system start at the camshaft and ending at the valve stem were increased in severity as valve spring pressures and thus loading increased. These loads cause scuffing from metal-to-metal contact. Small additions of additives such as ZDDP were sufficient to provide anti-wear protection for these mechanical parts.

Diesel engine oils contained detergent additives to combat the pollutants caused by diesel fuels and their combustion. There were many failures with heavy wear resulting particularly in the cam and tappets when attempts were first made to use diesel oils containing detergents or to introduce detergent additives into the oils of gasoline engines.

Theories abounded. It was erroneously thought that these detergents were either chemically attacking the metal or that these metallic compounds were actually abrading the metal surfaces. The problem is simply real estate - there is only so much metal surfaces for the boundary layer and anti-wear additives in the oil to attach.

And because most detergents do not have significant anti-wear capability, the surfaces become unprotected, and wear takes place where loads are the heaviest. To overcome this, a concentration of anti-wear additive, such as ZDDP, must be increased substantially to compete successfully with the detergent and get some measure of protection to these metal surfaces.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) standards for auto and diesel oils are represented by the alphabetical codes we see on the containers. The "S" is the automotive designation and this stands for "Service." Heavy-duty diesel oils carry a "C" designation, which stands for "Commercial."

Some are simply no longer useful: SA contains no additives and was designed for engines built before 1930; SB was for engines previous to 1951; SC for engines previous to 1967 and so on up to SH, now obsolete, which was for engines built in 1996 or older.

Today we can still find SJ-for 2001 and older automotive engines, SL-for 2004 and older automotive engines and the most current SM. The API service category for SM oil reads as follows:

"For all automotive engines currently in use. Introduced in 2004, SM oils are designed to provide improved oxidation resistance, improved deposit protection, better wear protection, and better low-temperature performance over the life of the oil. Some SM oils may also meet the latest ILSAC specification and/or qualify as Energy Conserving."

In 1992, an API-rated SH oil contained 1,200 parts per million (ppm) of phosphorus; in 1996 SJ contained 1,000 ppm. It was not until 2001, when the rating went to SL, that we all started to see camshaft problems appear.

In 2001, SL-rated oil still contained 1,000 ppm of phosphorous, and it is the phosphorous that limits are set on. But this limits the amount of ZDDP an oil manufacturer can use. The rating was changed due to demands for increased engine cleanliness standards.

Higher levels of detergents were introduced to meet these standards and camshaft problems began. It was not until 2004, when SM rated oils, with their limited 800 ppm phosphorus were introduced, that cam failures greatly increased.

Why then, you ask, have API standards pushed for higher detergent levels and lower levels of ZDDP? ZDDP attacks or "poisons" catalytic converters. The same attraction properties that allow it to adhere to or "plate" cams and lifters also happens to the catalyst in converters, thus rendering them ineffective.

Conversely, detergents have the same "cleaning effect" on the catalyst as they do on metal surfaces inside the engine. I must point out that these phosphorus level mandates are on SAE 10W-30 and lower viscosity grades only.

Most higher viscosity grades have adopted lower phosphorus content levels, but it was not mandated. They still must meet the higher detergent and dispersant levels to meet the API cleanliness requirements of an SM rating.

The then-current CJ-4 rated diesel oil had a phosphorus limit of 1,200 ppm. There were no previous limits to the amount of phosphorus or sulfur in "C" rated oils. But the high level of detergents and dispersants in diesel oil still compete with the ZDDP for metal surface areas.

ZDDP is a "class" of additives today, not just one particular chemical. These additives are the predominant anti-wear agents. Because diesel engines tend to run considerably hotter around the piston rings, ZDDP tends to decompose and produces a lacquer on cylinder walls. But, because of their heavy duty design and superior metallurgy, they have fewer wear problems than their gasoline counterparts.

For simpler diesel oil, a more stable, less potent form of ZDDP can be used. When developing multipurpose motor oils, for gasoline engines and high-speed passenger car diesel engines, careful decisions must be made in selecting the form of ZDDP, or a balanced mixture of 2 or more types may be used.

This is also true when comparing break-in oil, API rated motor oils for street use and true racing oils. A different type or types are used to control the rate of time the additives work to "plate" and "maintain" their protective barrier shield.

Concerns for the poisoning effect caused by ZDDP to catalytic converters have caused restrictions for its use in some countries. Japan has maintained a maximum limit on phosphorus of 0.05% for many years, while most countries have a limit set at 0.1%. In October of 2010, API SN/ILSAC GF-5 oils hit the shelves.

The requirements for an SN rating are the same 800 ppm maximum of phosphorus, but a new test has been added. A phosphorus retention test that may require the use of different or alternative ZDDP compounds.

The effects of these alternate additives on older flat tappet camshafts and valve train are just beginning to be seen, but can include roller camshaft wear! More changes are slated to come. California is even debating legislation that would require the complete removal of some additives, including ZDDP.

Some of today's motor oils can have strong negative effects on older, non-roller lifter design engines as we all have found. It becomes more important as valve train loads increase to use oils that are designed specifically for flat tappet camshafts, as in the use of high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs.

Dave Sutton's sources for this column include Lake Speed, Jr - Certified Lubrication Specialist & Member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers; The American Petroleum Institute web-site; www.gf-5.com website; and the "SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book." You can reach Dave at [email protected].

 

[RedVic]

Emissions is the reason for the reduction of ZDDP, and as shown in the multiple sources the newer API oils can and have resulted in flat tappet cam/lifer failure. That would include any flat tappet style valve train.

Spring pressure is a huge factor and as I pointed out each cam lobe and lifter on this Yamaha 1854 CC V-Twin engine operates one push rod and one rocker arm, that one rocker arm operates two valves and two valve springs at once, so you are doubling the spring pressure so instead of say having 60 pounds of spring pressure you have 120 pounds of spring pressure or the equivalent of a high performance/heavy duty valve springs, a spring pressure that even the oil companies have admitted the new oils will not offer proper protection against failure.

That is where the problem comes in, the new oils with their new anti wear additives are not as effective as is ZDDP and many cam lobes and lifters have failed because of it.

No manufature makes their own oil, they all contract that out and ask for a set of specs that will satisfy the API/JASO. Most new engines are roller cam/lifter or they are an overhead cam design with a follower and neither the roller cam or overhead cam with follower designs have as high of a load friction on the cam lobe/roller lifter or overhead cam/follower, so they do not require as much ZDDP to protect them.

The flat tappet style cam/lifter still have the same high load friction as they always have.

It keeps being said if there was a problem a recall would have been done but there are only three known failures so what is the problem. Yes those three are being covered under warranty, but how many of these expensive $25,000 to $27,000 dollar motorcycles has Yamaha sold since its release in late December/early January of this year? Have they sold 200? 300? 500? so 3 early failures of flat tappet cam/lifters would indicate there is a problem and oil is one of the likely places to look for said problem. Most people I know do not use the manufactures brand of oil, they use an aftermarket brand instead so I would bet that same pattern is happening with this new Yamaha as well, I know I don't use the Yamalube, I have moved over to Redline myself.

What we do know from experience is that oils with a ZDDP count of 1500 PPM or higher does not harm a flat tappet cam/lifter system and oil with less than 1500 PPM of ZDDP have contributed/caused flat tappet cam/lifter failure.

It seems to me it is far cheaper to just run an oil no matter the brand as I don't want to get accused of pushing a brand of oil, but run an oil with 1500 PPM of ZDDP or higher and eliminate the oil as a cause. I have not had any cam/lifter issues on my Yamaha 1854 CC V-Twin but outside of the first 1,000 miles break-in period where Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil was used, I have used one fill of Yamalube 15w-50 full synthetic with ester for a short run to flush out the remaining wear in metals and the rest of the fills have been Redline so my synthetic oils used oil lab reports showing ZDDP comfortably over 1500 PPM.

Run what ever you want in your engine, but knowing this engine is a flat tappet cam/lifter design it may be wise to use an oil with the higher ZDDP count of 1500 PPM or higher to ensure the Flat tappet cam/lifter have adequate protection.

I guess it is kind of like the old Fram commercials "You can pay me now or you can pay me later".

 

[alarmguy]

Its easy to post long technical sounding stories about motor oil to further a point of view.
It doesnt mean anything however.

What oil does Yamaha call for in the owners manual is the question?
Or is that question an "inconvenient truth"?

Its really that simple and reading all this ranting (some of which is 6+ years old and based on even older thinking) I see do not see the answer as to what oil Yamaha calls for.

If using the oil grade called for by Yamaha results in engine problems, then the Yamaha engine is poorly designed and you should be warning people not to buy it.

Its not the oil, its the engine design, gosh, its right there in front of you. You are blaming oil for a poor engine design, if the engine design was good it would not be failing (which I see no proof of) using the oil recommended by Yamaha.

(side note - piston flat tappet aircraft engine oil contains no zddp or moly or any metallic antiwear agents)
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w15w50.html

 

[RedVic]

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Its easy to post long technical sounding stories about motor oil to further a point of view.
It doesnt mean anything however.

What oil does Yamaha call for in the owners manual is the question?
Or is that question an "inconvenient truth"?

Its really that simple and reading all this ranting (some of which is 6+ years old and based on even older thinking) I see do not see the answer as to what oil Yamaha calls for.

If using the oil grade called for by Yamaha results in engine problems, then the Yamaha engine is poorly designed and you should be warning people not to buy it.

Its not the oil, its the engine design, gosh, its right there in front of you. You are blaming oil for a poor engine design, if the engine design was good it would not be failing (which I see no proof of) using the oil recommended by Yamaha.

(side note - piston flat tappet aircraft engine oil contains no zddp or moly or any metallic antiwear agents)
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w15w50.html



Aircraft engines are not car engines and are not comparable. There are far different guidelines in the aircraft industry. Aircraft engines are also required to be inspected and overhauled at specified intervals.

 

[RedVic]

Link to entire article: https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/performance-perspectives-april-2010/

To say lack of ZDDP has no effect on flat tappet cam/lifter systems is boring on complete dishonesty when there is so much evidence of lack of ZDDP resulting in flat tappet cam and lifter damage. While these articles deal with engines at the time they were written they apply just as much to an engine produced today that uses a flat tappet cam and lifter such as Yamaha used in this motorcycle.

APRIL 2010 ISSUE

PERFORMANCE PERSPECTIVES
By Mike Mavrigian

New engine oil formulations are of special concern to performance enthusiasts. Are you providing adequate protection for flat-tappet camshafts and lifters during break-in and long-term operation?

Older (I guess we can use the term vintage) engines commonly featured flat-tappet camshafts, as opposed to roller-lifter camshafts that are more commonly used in new engines and as performance upgrades on older engines.

In recent years there have been a rash of flat-tappet camshaft problems, and in too many cases the cam makers have unjustifiably shouldered the blame. It's rare that the problem lies with the camshaft; rather, the problem is more likely caused by improper or inadequate engine oil lubrication during camshaft break-in.

Because of EPA mandates, zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate (ZDDP), a vital element of the oil mix, has been drastically reduced or even eliminated in so-called standard engine oils that are intended for late-model production engines that feature a roller-style camshaft. If the oil doesn't contain enough ZDDP, it doesn't offer adequate antiscuff protection for the initial break-in of flat-tappet cams, or for long-term engine operation, either.

ZDDP is an antiwear and antioxidant additive initially developed in 1930 to prevent engine bearing corrosion. It's also referred to as ZDP or ZZDP. ZDDP also features excellent antiscuff properties.

In the 1960s, when high-performance flat-tappet camshafts were common, ZDDP featured a zinc level of .07%. At that time, new camshafts were phosphate-coated as well, and the combination worked well to protect new camshafts and lifters from premature wear, especially during break-in. In the '70s, zinc levels were increased to .09% because ZDDP is an excellent antioxidant. As engines became more powerful, oil recipes changed, too, becoming more complex, with more functional additives such as friction modifiers, antioxidants, detergents, etc. Friction modifiers gained further popularity to aid fuel economy, with zinc content increasing to .2% in the 1980s and early '90s.

Lake Speed, Jr., of Joe Gibbs Driven noted that zinc phosphate is not actually a lubricant until it gets hot. Once hot, it creates a phosphate glass filler on the metal surfaces, laying a foundation roughly equivalent to a painter's primer coat. The engine oil can be viewed as the topcoat. You need a high level of zinc during break-in to establish the phosphate glass filler. While you still need an adequate level of zinc for long-term cam protection, less is needed once cam break-in is accomplished—once the glass filler has been established.

In addition to the need for sufficient levels of ZDDP to protect flat-tappet camshafts during break-in and for long-term use, it's now recognized within the performance engine building community that a high ZDDP level is beneficial for many roller camshaft applications as well. Specifically, ZDDP protects lifter bodies and lifter bores, and prevents galling or scuffing issues where roller lifters exist in a tight oil clearance environment. ZDDP is also beneficial for roller rocker arms, especially where high valve spring pressures are present, to protect valve tips and pushrod tips. While the flat-tappet issue served to bring the ZDDP content of oil (or lack thereof) to the forefront, a high level of ZDDP may be beneficial to any performance engine application where pressure and scuffing concerns exist.

So if ZDDP is so beneficial, why has it been reduced to the point where it's causing flat-tappet cam problems? Phosphorous is a well-known con-tamination source for catalytic converters (some refer to it as "converter poison"). The limit for phosphorous dropped to .10%, which means that the zinc level dropped as well. In 2004, with Tier 2 emissions standards, OEM warranties changed to 10 years/100,000 miles, and phosphorous dropped again, to .08%, with zinc down to .09%.

Today's engine oils are generally vastly superior to oils made in the past, a major factor responsible for some engines being able to last for 250,000 miles or more. Improvements in metallurgy also play a role. The issue here is high-performance flat-tappet cam lobe wear during the break-in period. Aggressive cams with high spring loads compound the problem. This issue does not affect roller cams, since there's no scuff wear issue with rollers.

In a nutshell, whether in a direct or indirect manner, the EPA instructions to oil makers ignore older (that is, flat-tappet cam) engines and provide for late-model vehicles oils that avoid converter damage, thereby reducing emissions. The performance and collector car audience was left stranded as a result. We could say that this entire problem could have been avoided if the aftermarket performance and restoration community were properly informed about the change in oil makeup. In that case, we could have made a point to search for specific break-in oils that did contain adequate ZDDP levels. Instead, many of us learned the hard way by needlessly wiping out otherwise perfectly good camshafts during break-in runs.

To avoid flat-tappet cam lobe damage during break-in, naturally you must continue to apply the specific cam lobe and lifter assembly lube that's recommended by the cam maker. Many engine builders also install lower rate valve springs (lighter pressure) for the break-in phase, switching to the appropriate higher rate springs later. Using a lighter valve spring for break-in provides added insurance against lobe damage during break-in. In addition, you must use one of the few currently available dedicated break-in engine oils, or your oil of choice plus a ZDDP additive.