IWB Vs OWB and CC vs Open

[burbguy82]

I have never noticed "printing", but then again, I don't look at other guy's crotch area



Is that a concern where you guys are ? I'll admit, at an indoor range that we go to occasionally, I've been concerned about inexperienced people or careless people, but someone "losing it" isn't something I've ever considered.

There are very few if any situations I have not at least thought of on this topicor trained for. Is it a common issue no, but neither is anything else, when speaking about the judicious use of a gun, and the advantages of open carry in that situation.

Edit:

actually a while back at a local range, a guy went in with his mother.....they rented a gun to shoot....he stopped, pointed at her...then shot himself. sad.

 

[ATex7239]

I have never noticed "printing", but then again, I don't look at other guy's crotch area

Ah, good ol’ crotch carry. My personal favorite

 

[Pew]

Sig p365xl always concealed aiwb. Thinking about trying the SW bodyguard 2.0 and switching if I like it.

Ah, good ol’ crotch carry. My personal favorite

That is not a desert eagle in my pants

 

[LDB]

Concealed. Never open. Always always concealed. I'd be a fool to give away my secret. Open carry lets anyone know I'm the first one to target. I'll take and keep every advantage available. The smart money says concealed only ever and take that advantage.

 

[burbguy82]

I feel that most people who refuse to open carry, or at least attempt to wear a gun without printing, are, sometimes afraid of the conflict of how they look to society. Sure, who doesn't care about appearance, it is important. Bit if you decide to carry a gun, no matter what the opinion is.....carrying a gun is the most important decision you will make that day, in the circumstance where you have to use it....

OWB carry is way faster, way, mechanically safer and allows the carry of typically more effective equipment.

Really are we talking deep near no print concealed or just throw a shirt over a OWB gun?

 

[LDB]

Nope, nothing to do with what anyone inconsequential thinks, and other than my family everyone is inconsequential, just being smart enough to not wear a "shoot me first" banner.

 

[burbguy82]

"shoot me first" banner.

an interesting concept.

my thought is.....the one carrying the gun, should be up to the task......now understand, a citizen cannot be ready for anything at anytime from all directions, endlessly......that is not what i mean....

"shoot me first" denotes that one who be in public, like a WM or grocery store.....somewhere like that.....

how I see it, if you bare the responsibility that comes with carrying a gun, then the notion of being shot at, as opposed to the innocent, should be an imminent eventuality, hopefully quicker than later.

 

[ATex7239]

an interesting concept.

my thought is.....the one carrying the gun, should be up to the task......now understand, a citizen cannot be ready for anything at anytime from all directions, endlessly......that is not what i mean....

"shoot me first" denotes that one who be in public, like a WM or grocery store.....somewhere like that.....

how I see it, if you bare the responsibility that comes with carrying a gun, then the notion of being shot at, as opposed to the innocent, should be an imminent eventuality, hopefully quicker than later.

I think there’s more to it than that though. It requires a much more extreme level of awareness about yourself and surroundings as mentioned in earlier posts. It also requires better gear like a high quality gun belt and retention holster. As well as proper retention techniques which can only be learned and developed by experience and/or dedicated training taught by experienced professional trainers.

OC makes you more of a target in general. Not just for being “shot at first.” But being outright attacked period. When you have a gun on you every altercation has the potential to turn into a gun fight cause you brought one. Anything you can do to mitigate others knowing you’re armed is a strategic advantage for you and can help prevent any unintended escalations.

IMO the question one should ask themselves prior to OC in public is, are you seriously ready to maintain that level of awareness, commitment, and physical capability/fitness. People often forget the physical capabilities part because you have to check your ego. It isn’t a morality or rights thing. It’s a mental and physical readiness, skills and tactics thing in my book.

 

[Cropduster172]

I think there’s more to it than that though. It requires a much more extreme level of awareness about yourself and surroundings as mentioned in earlier posts. It also requires better gear like a high quality gun belt and retention holster. As well as proper retention techniques which can only be learned and developed by experience and/or dedicated training taught by experienced professional trainers.

OC makes you more of a target in general. Not just for being “shot at first.” But being outright attacked period. When you have a gun on you every altercation has the potential to turn into a gun fight cause you brought one. Anything you can do to mitigate others knowing you’re armed is a strategic advantage for you and can help prevent any unintended escalations.

IMO the question one should ask themselves prior to OC in public is, are you seriously ready to maintain that level of awareness, commitment, and physical capability/fitness. People often forget the physical capabilities part because you have to check your ego. It isn’t a morality or rights thing. It’s a mental and physical readiness, skills and tactics thing in my book.

^^^
This.

 

[burbguy82]

OC makes you more of a target in general.

not sure I would agree....in a targeted attack by professionals, yes, but joe blow, not so sure. Someone intendeding to do mass harm to the innocent is not going to scan for those with guns, just shoot at the first and most likely target......

Anything you can do to mitigate others knowing you’re armed is a strategic advantage for you and can help prevent any unintended escalations.

Well, lets say there is a guy, one of those who is always looking for confrontation. He sees two men, one with a gun, and one without one. Which does the guy pick a fight with? I like many have encountered rude folks, and those with hostile intentions. I have never had a hostile encounter, as a civilian, when someone knew I had a gun. "an armed citizenry is a polite one" kind of thing.

are you seriously ready to maintain that level of awareness, commitment, and physical capability/fitness.

yes. and all others should be aswell. i would argue, mechanically, that carrying concealed takes more training, to safely and successfully unholster a gun from the appendix, is dangerous......far more dangerous than OWB and open. I can, drunk, half asleep ,after doing 25 pushups, draw a gun and put one in the A zone from 15 ft, quick. Most cannot do it. Not touting, just making an example.

It’s a mental and physical readiness, skills and tactics thing in my book.

Agreed. 10005%

we are on the same page

____________________________________

This argument also has a tribal component to it. There are those who obtain a CC permit, go through the joke class, and think that they have obtained a "status". I dont know how many people I have been in conversation with about shooting, and the first thing they say is: "I have a CC permit" like that is a qualifier for something. It is not......., just a paper from the state that tells them that you have been trained about the laws, and actually thereby more likely to be prosecuted for an infraction when it come to firearms.....held to a high legal standard. It has nothing to do with the readiness of the citizen.

I am not arguing that one way or the other is better, they both have their place.

I also think that some, cannot stand the sight of a gun. For one reason or the other. I submit that reason, more times than not is shame. Shame in the lack of self realization, that as much as some would want people to believe.........no one is going to save you, no one is coming to put their life on the line for you, 100%, except you............in short, you are not safe.

I think the world would be better if we all had guns, concealed or not......i just wish that more people took more time in marksmanship, and more importantly, defensive shooting, which are different.

 

[burbguy82]

Ah, good ol’ crotch carry. My personal favorite

me too, I think it has the most advantages, as long as you keep your finger off the trigger.

 

[Cropduster172]

not sure I would agree....in a targeted attack by professionals, yes, but joe blow, not so sure. Someone intendeding to do mass harm to the innocent is not going to scan for those with guns, just shoot at the first and most likely target......

Well, lets say there is a guy, one of those who is always looking for confrontation. He sees two men, one with a gun, and one without one. Which does the guy pick a fight with? I like many have encountered rude folks, and those with hostile intentions. I have never had a hostile encounter, as a civilian, when someone knew I had a gun. "an armed citizenry is a polite one" kind of thing.

yes. and all others should be aswell. i would argue, mechanically, that carrying concealed takes more training, to safely and successfully unholster a gun from the appendix, is dangerous......far more dangerous than OWB and open. I can, drunk, half asleep ,after doing 25 pushups, draw a gun and put one in the A zone from 15 ft, quick. Most cannot do it. Not touting, just making an example.

Agreed. 10005%

we are on the same page

____________________________________

This argument also has a tribal component to it. There are those who obtain a CC permit, go through the joke class, and think that they have obtained a "status". I dont know how many people I have been in conversation with about shooting, and the first thing they say is: "I have a CC permit" like that is a qualifier for something. It is not......., just a paper from the state that tells them that you have been trained about the laws, and actually thereby more likely to be prosecuted for an infraction when it come to firearms.....held to a high legal standard. It has nothing to do with the readiness of the citizen.

I am not arguing that one way or the other is better, they both have their place.

I also think that some, cannot stand the sight of a gun. For one reason or the other. I submit that reason, more times than not is shame. Shame in the lack of self realization, that as much as some would want people to believe.........no one is going to save you, no one is coming to put their life on the line for you, 100%, except you............in short, you are not safe.

I think the world would be better if we all had guns, concealed or not......i just wish that more people took more time in marksmanship, and more importantly, defensive shooting, which are different.

I do respect your perspective and opinion regarding OC, but I categorically disagree with it.

But I'd like to hear more about the half asleep, drunk, 25 pushups and 9 ring thing!

 

[burbguy82]

I do respect your perspective and opinion regarding OC, but I categorically disagree with it.

If the stance is becuase of disarmament, I agree 100%.....as most do not have the level of training or equipment to open carry safely and responsibly..........one reason why I dont care for leather holsters that have no retention is that in a scuffle, the gun can fall out.

But I'd like to hear more about the half asleep, drunk, 25 pushups and 9 ring thing!

check your PM, not suitable for open discussion as per the rules of the forum. Not good advice for the general public.

 

[ATex7239]

not sure I would agree....in a targeted attack by professionals, yes, but joe blow, not so sure. Someone intendeding to do mass harm to the innocent is not going to scan for those with guns, just shoot at the first and most likely target......

Maybe. But Police killed with their own weapons are not generally attacked by highly trained/skilled people or mass shooters. Same goes with civilians.

A tweaked out drug addict robbery or Joe Blow road rager attack are far more likely scenarios to encounter. And I think you may be discounting exactly how dangerous those people/situations can be.

Well, lets say there is a guy, one of those who is always looking for confrontation. He sees two men, one with a gun, and one without one. Which does the guy pick a fight with? I like many have encountered rude folks, and those with hostile intentions. I have never had a hostile encounter, as a civilian, when someone knew I had a gun. "an armed citizenry is a polite one" kind of thing.

Agreed. But I’m not concealed carrying for polite, reasonable people. I’m concealed carrying for the crazies, addicts, criminals, unstable, etc. These people don’t think and act like us.

yes. and all others should be aswell. i would argue, mechanically, that carrying concealed takes more training, to safely and successfully unholster a gun from the appendix, is dangerous......far more dangerous than OWB and open. I can, drunk, half asleep ,after doing 25 pushups, draw a gun and put one in the A zone from 15 ft, quick. Most cannot do it. Not touting, just making an example.

I think preparing and training for drawing from concealment is far more easily done than preparing and training for full on OC weapons retention. But to each his own. If you are staying ready and trained up then go forth friend.

I think the world would be better if we all had guns, concealed or not......i just wish that more people took more time in marksmanship, and more importantly, defensive shooting, which are different.

Agreed. Full stop.

 

[LDB]

There are any number of arguments for why OC is as good as, or preferred to, CC. And all are wrong. I'd have gone into an excellent and lengthy response, as some have done, in younger days. Now I'm too old, tired and cranky so I'm just getting straight to the point the safer and smarter of the two options is CC and holding the tactical advantage it offers. I do enjoy those willing to expand responses though.

 

[burbguy82]

There are any number of arguments for why OC is as good as, or preferred to, CC. And all are wrong. I'd have gone into an excellent and lengthy response, as some have done, in younger days. Now I'm too old, tired and cranky so I'm just getting straight to the point the safer and smarter of the two options is CC and holding the tactical advantage it offers. I do enjoy those willing to expand responses though.

yeah there is no correct answer

 

[Hohn]

Open carry in a populated environment is not a deterrent, it's an attraction, advertisement and invitation for serious problems.
As a cop, you develop your personal space radius limit depending on the situation and it's mostly based on sidearm retention. Most duty holsters have some form of retention too. Civilians going about their every day lives can't effectively create that personal space boundary in a grocery store, gas station, Home Depot, train station, sidewalk.
Very few on this forum have the sustained level of both self and situational awareness to know who, if, when, where some maggot can split your skull from behind with a hammer, put a slapper to the side of your head just out of your peripheral vision, I know I don't at least not so much anymore. There's an infinite number of potential risk exposure scenarios one can never account for where someone sees your weapon and will stop at nothing to try and take it.
I see all risk and zero benefit.
For concealed carry, I see all benefit and almost zero risk.

I used to think that way also. This long posting on Open Carry made me realize it's not quite so simple. I'm still not certain I'd want to O/C, since I CC when I'm out. But I do find most of the arguments made against OC to be spurious. The link below does a good job showing that, IMO.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/the-open-carry-argument.71996/

 

[Hohn]

There are any number of arguments for why OC is as good as, or preferred to, CC. And all are wrong. I'd have gone into an excellent and lengthy response, as some have done, in younger days. Now I'm too old, tired and cranky so I'm just getting straight to the point the safer and smarter of the two options is CC and holding the tactical advantage it offers. I do enjoy those willing to expand responses though.

Tactical advantage? What advantage is that? In what world is surprise a *defensive* tactic? Surprise is only an offensive tactic.

Ever wonder why cops on duty do not CC and gain the supposed "tactical advantage" it provides? Because it doesn't provide advantage. I assure you, with comparable training, nobody can draw from concealment as quickly or reliably as someone from open carry.


Moreover, the deterrent value of CC is zero. The deterrent value of OC is nonzero. Criminals aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, but they have life preservation instincts in most cases.

 

[Hohn]

yeah there is no correct answer

There is, it's just situationally dependent.

I assure you there's no alaskan guide that will CC his personal defensive firearm. NO, it will be OCs in a chest rig or shoulder harness and typically on a pack immediately accessible.

 

[Cropduster172]

There is, it's just situationally dependent.

I assure you there's no alaskan guide that will CC his personal defensive firearm. NO, it will be OCs in a chest rig or shoulder harness and typically on a pack immediately accessible.

Newsflash. Most folks that carry a sidearm don't reside in the Alaskan wilderness, nor are they wandering deeply rural wooded trails. They are in urban or suburban locals.
If I were to hike some rural mountain trails...sure, I'd have no problem with open carry.
But that just isn't realistic for the locals I mentioned.