Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
Ivy League
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Painting broad brush? Jealous you could not make it in...
Broad brush? Yep. Jealous? Nope. I have known several non-Ivy Leaguers that have received too much education and are now government proles in elevated positions.
"Several" out of HOW MANY "non-Ivy League" schools? There are hundreds of non-Ivy League schools out there. I got my advanced degree from a school filled with examples of the "elite". Not real impressed. John Kerry, for example, couldn't get into an Ivy League law school even with his "Harrrrvard" degree.
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Painting broad brush? Jealous you could not make it in...
Broad brush? Yep. Jealous? Nope. I have known several non-Ivy Leaguers that have received too much education and are now government proles in elevated positions.
"Several" out of HOW MANY "non-Ivy League" schools? There are hundreds of non-Ivy League schools out there. I got my advanced degree from a school filled with examples of the "elite". Not real impressed. John Kerry, for example, couldn't get into an Ivy League law school even with his "Harrrrvard" degree.
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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
Camp Bruno on the Hill (Brown) was entirely pass fail for decades. Now they have a medical school. Make you feel good?
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
Camp Bruno on the Hill (Brown) was entirely pass fail for decades. Now they have a medical school. Make you feel good?
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: madRiver
What I have personally with friends who attended top prep schools and ivy league is the education is not what lead to success(helped).
Its the amazing bonds and connections established what get them somewhere latter in life. You go with who you know and trust not some resume.....
Yep. Its the people you know that will open many doors in your profession.
Networking helps a lot more than a GPA on your school transcripts .
The people who worked with Madoff are happy they "networked".
Originally Posted By: madRiver
What I have personally with friends who attended top prep schools and ivy league is the education is not what lead to success(helped).
Its the amazing bonds and connections established what get them somewhere latter in life. You go with who you know and trust not some resume.....
Yep. Its the people you know that will open many doors in your profession.
Networking helps a lot more than a GPA on your school transcripts .
The people who worked with Madoff are happy they "networked".
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: spavel6
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Tell that to anti-intellectual types like Fox News and some of their audience. I have a feeling that this "news" item is a manipulated story like the Planned Parenthood or ACORN videos.
^ The party line at work.
Originally Posted By: spavel6
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Tell that to anti-intellectual types like Fox News and some of their audience. I have a feeling that this "news" item is a manipulated story like the Planned Parenthood or ACORN videos.
^ The party line at work.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: spavel6
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Tell that to anti-intellectual types like Fox News and some of their audience. I have a feeling that this "news" item is a manipulated story like the Planned Parenthood or ACORN videos.
^ The party line at work. Not a HINT of bias there.
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: spavel6
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Tell that to anti-intellectual types like Fox News and some of their audience. I have a feeling that this "news" item is a manipulated story like the Planned Parenthood or ACORN videos.
^ The party line at work. Not a HINT of bias there.
Originally Posted By: Donald
There are many excellent state universities. No need to go to an ivy league if it means being up to your eye balls in debt.
The truth is that the Ivy League, which consists of eight specific schools by the way, despite some specious claims to the contrary in this thread, won't leave you up to your eyeballs in debt.
The elite schools, like Harvard and Yale, use their endowments to support need-blind admissions and need-based aid. If your family makes less than $65K/year, you go for FREE. 20% of Harvard's students attend for free. The college even considers the incidental costs during the semester, including laundry, travel to/from home, etc. in the determination of costs. Other family members in college are considered as well.
The students who graduate up to their eyeballs in debt are the ones who are NOT in the Ivy League. Many private colleges and universities simply can't provide the financial aid that the Ivies can. Yale's endowment is about $25 billion. They don't even need the tuition to run the institution, while many private schools need every dollar from tuition just to meet budget.
The combination of child expectation and parental indulgence leads to many students going to a "dream" school that offers wonderful amenities; gyms, rec centers, dorms, theaters, etc. with which the child falls in love...to the financial detriment of both child and parent.
There is a myth that you have to go to college in the first place...when my electrician has achieved far more than most college graduates, I dispute that myth. Extraordinary pressure on parents to send kids to college has distorted the supply/demand balance in higher education, leading to the creation of many "degree" mills that charge $45K/year and more without any financial aid.
Those are financial traps into which desperate parents and starry-eyed kids fall routinely.
On BITOG, I see many threads that find fault with the Ivy League...a bit of Schadenfreude, perhaps...with a tinge of envy...
But that video piece has a political agenda, and it shows about a dozen people, who may or may not be Yale students (the producer was standing in public areas, into which any person can walk, not in the areas of campus which have limited access). So, how many Yalies turned down his petition? How many signers were verified as actually being Yalies and not New Haven residents?
Funny how many of you are willing to accept this piece at face value, without questioning the methodology or results, when you apply such a rigorous standard of evidence to mundane topics like oil selection, or ammo performance.
https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid
http://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability
http://news.yale.edu/2015/09/24/investment-return-115-brings-yale-endowment-value-256-billion
There are many excellent state universities. No need to go to an ivy league if it means being up to your eye balls in debt.
The truth is that the Ivy League, which consists of eight specific schools by the way, despite some specious claims to the contrary in this thread, won't leave you up to your eyeballs in debt.
The elite schools, like Harvard and Yale, use their endowments to support need-blind admissions and need-based aid. If your family makes less than $65K/year, you go for FREE. 20% of Harvard's students attend for free. The college even considers the incidental costs during the semester, including laundry, travel to/from home, etc. in the determination of costs. Other family members in college are considered as well.
The students who graduate up to their eyeballs in debt are the ones who are NOT in the Ivy League. Many private colleges and universities simply can't provide the financial aid that the Ivies can. Yale's endowment is about $25 billion. They don't even need the tuition to run the institution, while many private schools need every dollar from tuition just to meet budget.
The combination of child expectation and parental indulgence leads to many students going to a "dream" school that offers wonderful amenities; gyms, rec centers, dorms, theaters, etc. with which the child falls in love...to the financial detriment of both child and parent.
There is a myth that you have to go to college in the first place...when my electrician has achieved far more than most college graduates, I dispute that myth. Extraordinary pressure on parents to send kids to college has distorted the supply/demand balance in higher education, leading to the creation of many "degree" mills that charge $45K/year and more without any financial aid.
Those are financial traps into which desperate parents and starry-eyed kids fall routinely.
On BITOG, I see many threads that find fault with the Ivy League...a bit of Schadenfreude, perhaps...with a tinge of envy...
But that video piece has a political agenda, and it shows about a dozen people, who may or may not be Yale students (the producer was standing in public areas, into which any person can walk, not in the areas of campus which have limited access). So, how many Yalies turned down his petition? How many signers were verified as actually being Yalies and not New Haven residents?
Funny how many of you are willing to accept this piece at face value, without questioning the methodology or results, when you apply such a rigorous standard of evidence to mundane topics like oil selection, or ammo performance.
https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid
http://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability
http://news.yale.edu/2015/09/24/investment-return-115-brings-yale-endowment-value-256-billion
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
OK - that is just so blatantly untrue I don't know where to begin...
You have to work your butt off to get in. Harvard had 35,000 applicants to the class of 2018. That class has 1,300 students.
You can't skip class and pass. You can't just "skate by". Part of the challenge of the Ivy league is that every kid there, every kid, was Valedictorian and intensely competitive...the school doesn't have to set the pace when thousands of type-A personalities are competing for performance...they end up placing tremendous pressure on themselves to achieve.
Not one of those kids gets a "gentlemen's C". See my above post, about 70% of those kids aren't paying full tuition because, frankly, Yale and Harvard don't care about tuition.
A diploma from those schools is pure gold, because employers know what the kids had to go through, a) to gain admission and b) to graduate.
Now, read my post above...there are lots of schools handing out "gentlemen's C"...mostly to athletes who graduate unable to read or write...schools that you've heard of...schools that you think highly of because of the professional athletes that wear their jersey...
Those schools are the ones that should cause you concern. Those schools have diplomas worth T-P for some...as long as you keep playing and winning...or as long as mom & dad keep paying us $50K a year, those schools will let you graduate.
But give up the specious, sour grapes delusion that it's easy to graduate from Harvard or Yale.
Because it isn't.
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
OK - that is just so blatantly untrue I don't know where to begin...
You have to work your butt off to get in. Harvard had 35,000 applicants to the class of 2018. That class has 1,300 students.
You can't skip class and pass. You can't just "skate by". Part of the challenge of the Ivy league is that every kid there, every kid, was Valedictorian and intensely competitive...the school doesn't have to set the pace when thousands of type-A personalities are competing for performance...they end up placing tremendous pressure on themselves to achieve.
Not one of those kids gets a "gentlemen's C". See my above post, about 70% of those kids aren't paying full tuition because, frankly, Yale and Harvard don't care about tuition.
A diploma from those schools is pure gold, because employers know what the kids had to go through, a) to gain admission and b) to graduate.
Now, read my post above...there are lots of schools handing out "gentlemen's C"...mostly to athletes who graduate unable to read or write...schools that you've heard of...schools that you think highly of because of the professional athletes that wear their jersey...
Those schools are the ones that should cause you concern. Those schools have diplomas worth T-P for some...as long as you keep playing and winning...or as long as mom & dad keep paying us $50K a year, those schools will let you graduate.
But give up the specious, sour grapes delusion that it's easy to graduate from Harvard or Yale.
Because it isn't.
I graduated from a university that's tagged as a "public Ivy" and my only comment would be something along the lines of "How smart are you at 18-22 years old anyway??" You can be militant about any cause but it's more likely that your ideals and your enthusiasm will outpace your relation to that cause at that age...not to mention the fact that students will sign any petition when petitioners are a penny a dozen on campus and their signature becomes something akin to putting money in a Salvation Army bucket.
Originally Posted By: spavel6
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Oh for crying out loud!
While you're busy patting yourself on the back, if you really were educated at an elite school, you would know the eight schools that constitute the Ivy league (here's a hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League )...so you would know that there is no "smaller, more remote Ivys"...further, as a highly educated "Ivy League" graduate, you would know that the colloquial expression is "sour grapes", from both the bible and Aesop's fables...not "sour apples"...or perhaps classical reading and writing aren't required any more?
There are many fine colleges and universities out there that offer a rich and rigorous education, but unless you're in those 8, you're not in the Ivy League.
So, be specific.
Where did you actually go to school that was so wonderful?
I had an excellent Ivy League experience at one of the smaller, more remote Ivys, graduating this century. There are sour apples everywhere, but for the most part the standard of intelligence, dedication, and compassion is pretty high among my peers.
Oh for crying out loud!
While you're busy patting yourself on the back, if you really were educated at an elite school, you would know the eight schools that constitute the Ivy league (here's a hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League )...so you would know that there is no "smaller, more remote Ivys"...further, as a highly educated "Ivy League" graduate, you would know that the colloquial expression is "sour grapes", from both the bible and Aesop's fables...not "sour apples"...or perhaps classical reading and writing aren't required any more?
There are many fine colleges and universities out there that offer a rich and rigorous education, but unless you're in those 8, you're not in the Ivy League.
So, be specific.
Where did you actually go to school that was so wonderful?
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I don't think much has changed since I graduated from Penn State in 1969.
Students in Engineering didn't have time to vote on changing the Constitution. They were too busy trying to survive. I hit the bars on Sat night and on "Drinking Night" (Wed). But that was the extent of my entertainment.
Students in Engineering didn't have time to vote on changing the Constitution. They were too busy trying to survive. I hit the bars on Sat night and on "Drinking Night" (Wed). But that was the extent of my entertainment.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
OK - that is just so blatantly untrue I don't know where to begin...
You have to work your butt off to get in. Harvard had 35,000 applicants to the class of 2018. That class has 1,300 students.
You can't skip class and pass. You can't just "skate by". Part of the challenge of the Ivy league is that every kid there, every kid, was Valedictorian and intensely competitive...the school doesn't have to set the pace when thousands of type-A personalities are competing for performance...they end up placing tremendous pressure on themselves to achieve.
Not one of those kids gets a "gentlemen's C". See my above post, about 70% of those kids aren't paying full tuition because, frankly, Yale and Harvard don't care about tuition.
A diploma from those schools is pure gold, because employers know what the kids had to go through, a) to gain admission and b) to graduate.
Now, read my post above...there are lots of schools handing out "gentlemen's C"...mostly to athletes who graduate unable to read or write...schools that you've heard of...schools that you think highly of because of the professional athletes that wear their jersey...
Those schools are the ones that should cause you concern. Those schools have diplomas worth T-P for some...as long as you keep playing and winning...or as long as mom & dad keep paying us $50K a year, those schools will let you graduate.
But give up the specious, sour grapes delusion that it's easy to graduate from Harvard or Yale.
Because it isn't.
It appears that we have a difference in opinion. I'm a Caltech graduate and I've met and worked with both highly educated, very intelligent and motivated Ivy League grads and Gentlemen Ivy League Grads. I've also met Ivy League grads that belong to one of those many secret societies and it's been quite an experience.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Any university systems like Yale and Harvard that will allow elite students to accept a "gentleman's C" in some classes instead of attending class, doing the classwork and homework and passing tests but paying the tuition makes a diploma no better than a piece of toilet paper.
OK - that is just so blatantly untrue I don't know where to begin...
You have to work your butt off to get in. Harvard had 35,000 applicants to the class of 2018. That class has 1,300 students.
You can't skip class and pass. You can't just "skate by". Part of the challenge of the Ivy league is that every kid there, every kid, was Valedictorian and intensely competitive...the school doesn't have to set the pace when thousands of type-A personalities are competing for performance...they end up placing tremendous pressure on themselves to achieve.
Not one of those kids gets a "gentlemen's C". See my above post, about 70% of those kids aren't paying full tuition because, frankly, Yale and Harvard don't care about tuition.
A diploma from those schools is pure gold, because employers know what the kids had to go through, a) to gain admission and b) to graduate.
Now, read my post above...there are lots of schools handing out "gentlemen's C"...mostly to athletes who graduate unable to read or write...schools that you've heard of...schools that you think highly of because of the professional athletes that wear their jersey...
Those schools are the ones that should cause you concern. Those schools have diplomas worth T-P for some...as long as you keep playing and winning...or as long as mom & dad keep paying us $50K a year, those schools will let you graduate.
But give up the specious, sour grapes delusion that it's easy to graduate from Harvard or Yale.
Because it isn't.
It appears that we have a difference in opinion. I'm a Caltech graduate and I've met and worked with both highly educated, very intelligent and motivated Ivy League grads and Gentlemen Ivy League Grads. I've also met Ivy League grads that belong to one of those many secret societies and it's been quite an experience.
Boneheads.
Do the libtards realize that the Constitution is the only thing preventing the government from having complete control over out lives?
Even our basic freedoms are constantly challenged by idiots and lawmakers.
Do the libtards realize that the Constitution is the only thing preventing the government from having complete control over out lives?
Even our basic freedoms are constantly challenged by idiots and lawmakers.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Boneheads.
Do the libtards realize that the Constitution is the only thing preventing the government from having complete control over out lives?
Even our basic freedoms are constantly challenged by idiots and lawmakers.
I think the real boneheads are the people that take this video as being representative of Yale when we know none of the facts surrounding its creation.
How many people did the producer verify were actually Yale students? How many people asked declined to sign?
The fact that Yale has hundreds of international students means that this producer could've been filming solely international students (who know nothing of our Constitution), or just people from New Haven, and ascribing ignorance to a group with whom he didn't actually interact.
He was in the public area of campus, in front of the library. Not everyone walking through there actually goes to Yale...Lots of local traffic, tourists, grad students, and yes, Yale students...
But who actually signed his petition? He didn't determine anyone's undergraduate status...
I am surprised how quickly everyone accepts this obvious baiting as being representative of a group of people....when the production process is full of holes in the methodology.
Boneheads.
Do the libtards realize that the Constitution is the only thing preventing the government from having complete control over out lives?
Even our basic freedoms are constantly challenged by idiots and lawmakers.
I think the real boneheads are the people that take this video as being representative of Yale when we know none of the facts surrounding its creation.
How many people did the producer verify were actually Yale students? How many people asked declined to sign?
The fact that Yale has hundreds of international students means that this producer could've been filming solely international students (who know nothing of our Constitution), or just people from New Haven, and ascribing ignorance to a group with whom he didn't actually interact.
He was in the public area of campus, in front of the library. Not everyone walking through there actually goes to Yale...Lots of local traffic, tourists, grad students, and yes, Yale students...
But who actually signed his petition? He didn't determine anyone's undergraduate status...
I am surprised how quickly everyone accepts this obvious baiting as being representative of a group of people....when the production process is full of holes in the methodology.
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
if you really were educated at an elite school, you would know the eight schools that constitute the Ivy league (here's a hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League )...so you would know that there is no "smaller, more remote Ivys"...
What? Can confirm, the school is on the list.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
the colloquial expression is "sour grapes", from both the bible and Aesop's fables...not "sour apples"...or perhaps classical reading and writing aren't required any more?
Sorry, never had a bible study class in college.
Why are you attacking my comment? I'm agreeing with you..
if you really were educated at an elite school, you would know the eight schools that constitute the Ivy league (here's a hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League )...so you would know that there is no "smaller, more remote Ivys"...
What? Can confirm, the school is on the list.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
the colloquial expression is "sour grapes", from both the bible and Aesop's fables...not "sour apples"...or perhaps classical reading and writing aren't required any more?
Sorry, never had a bible study class in college.
Why are you attacking my comment? I'm agreeing with you..
You are agreeing with me....but in a way that came across as, well, self-congratulatory...I apologize for going on the offensive...
As far as colloquialisms....you should have read Aesop's fables in grammar school...and I'm surprised that no one has called you on it until now...but then I have witnessed the decline of cultural literacy since my time in school...what's replaced it is...well...let us save that for later discussion, but it has to do with the buzz that the cultural and civic illiteracy that's purported by this video to exist at Yale...
Now, perhaps you can help me out...which one is both smaller and more remote...there's only one in the sticks...but it's not smaller...is it?
Unless you think Hanover is remote...
As far as colloquialisms....you should have read Aesop's fables in grammar school...and I'm surprised that no one has called you on it until now...but then I have witnessed the decline of cultural literacy since my time in school...what's replaced it is...well...let us save that for later discussion, but it has to do with the buzz that the cultural and civic illiteracy that's purported by this video to exist at Yale...
Now, perhaps you can help me out...which one is both smaller and more remote...there's only one in the sticks...but it's not smaller...is it?
Unless you think Hanover is remote...
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One thing Harvard or Yale might teach a student is that a single attributed Fox news article is hardly a convincing treatise on a subject.
Originally Posted By: Al
...Students in Engineering didn't have time to vote on changing the Constitution. They were too busy trying to survive. I hit the bars on Sat night and on "Drinking Night" (Wed). But that was the extent of my entertainment.
+1
I didn't have the time, much less the interest to protest, go on marches, do "sit ins", etc. I was buried in homework, labwork, and programming classes. The only difference between weekends and weekdays was that I didn't go to class...there were no longer "weekends".
Entertainment? Watching one of your professors get smashed, then have his wife/girlfriend come get him at a IEEE beer bust. Too bad we didn't have smart phones with video capability back then.......
...Students in Engineering didn't have time to vote on changing the Constitution. They were too busy trying to survive. I hit the bars on Sat night and on "Drinking Night" (Wed). But that was the extent of my entertainment.
+1
I didn't have the time, much less the interest to protest, go on marches, do "sit ins", etc. I was buried in homework, labwork, and programming classes. The only difference between weekends and weekdays was that I didn't go to class...there were no longer "weekends".
Entertainment? Watching one of your professors get smashed, then have his wife/girlfriend come get him at a IEEE beer bust. Too bad we didn't have smart phones with video capability back then.......
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