ISC and ECM

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I was having no significant drivability problems with my '93 Elantra but wanted to have it scoped. It has had a loppy idle pretty much since I bought it 15 months ago. Sometimes at a red light the lights would dim, but it never stalled. The scoping showed no error codes but I was told that the ISC (Idle Speed Controller) was toast and likely took the ECM with it. Also that this is a bit of an issue with Hyundais from around '93. The two parts are about $1000 CDN without labour, and since they tend to be fritzy, buying used parts would be pretty unwise. The car runs OK as it has in the past year.
Comments? Advice? PLEASE?
THANKS
 
I Am just guessing but if it runs good the E C M must be ok? is the throttle body clean? Also check the air passage for the I S C is clean. This is a wild guess but the air passage can get cruded up and WD 40 usually cleans the air passage with out ruining anything. I do not know what kind of fuel injection system is used but for $1000.I would figure out something like adjust the throttle plates but as allways check the basic tune up items first.Simple things first.I learned in auto computor classes this those who live by the codes die by the codes.Its the difference between a mechanic and a parts changer.
 
Steve is soooooooo correct. Many parts changers have no idea what the computer system is about.

First, look at the info you gave us.

No codes. This means, that the computer has not sensed any errors. When the ECM(electronic Control Module) is running, it examines each sensor Including the Idle Speed Controller for feedback. This is how the ECM can control this otherwise it wouldn't know what to do. So, if the controller is bad, it could / would normally sense a problem thus setting a code.

Since no codes are evident, Do as Steve suggests, start with basic tune up. Then move on to vacuum possible problems and such. Many times, when an engine is giving you simple problems like this, it could be nothing more than slight intake leak from a unconnect hose, or crack in the hose.

Another possiblitly that seems to look like is a low voltage problem. Sometimes, you can have a weak charging problem. With low voltage, while using the headlights and such for long periods of times, you can put a drain on the battery because the battery isn't getting enough juice to replace what is being used therefore, the condition can effect you during certain times. Let me clarify... During the day, you may not run your headlights, thus the low charging condition can adaquatly charge up your battery during this time as it isn't pulling much off the battery therefore your producing more than the battery is using, but during the times you have the headlights on, you are putting a heavier load on this system. When you first put on the lights, your battery can have a good charge but over a period of time of driving, it can start to weaken because you start to drain off all the charge it has stored then you end up with a lower voltage. Not low enough to set off any indicators yet, but this can cause the ecm to act erraticly and not have enough voltage to actually run some of the controller, thus giving you the same indication of a controller problem. What you might do is make sure your battery has a good charge, then turn on your lights and put a load on the battery with a load tester which many parts places use to check battery conditions. The battery and charging system should have no problem recovering from this and can show if you might have a charging problem.


The thing about computers on the newer engines are they can only point you in the direction in most cases as to possible problem areas. It's up to the mechanic to diagnose the cause but unfortunatly too many diagnose the sympton and miss the cause of the problem.

BTW, this isn't to say that the problem isn't the ISC, but before just replaceing parts, verify the other possiblities. One last thing.. most controllers used in controlling like a coil or a sensor, can be ohm'd out with a volt ohm meter. Many times, if you have no idea of what it should read, you can take the suspected part in to the parts house with you, get a new one out, and compare the ohms against each other and this also can give you some indication as to if it is possibly bad as well. You cannot do this with the ECM. That is a control module with many inputs and outputs and can be only tested in the vehicle with a schematic showing the in's and outs.
 
I agree that the ECM is probably OK. There's a good chance the poor idle is caused by a dirty or faulty ISC. I'm not familiar with the Hyundais, but on most other vehicles you can remove and clean the idle controller. They are located on the throttle body, and tend to accumulate carbon. If cleaning dosen't help, then I would replace the ISC.

Steve touched on this:
Try cleaning the throttle body in the area where the throttle plate contacts the housing. If carbon builds up there, it will restrict the idle air flow, and give an erratic idle.
 
As Ed says.

My experience is that most alternators (with no load other than engine) have an output voltage of 13.8 to 14.5 volts at idle, with the higher voltage seen on later model cars.
If the output voltage is not this high, you may have either a bad diode or an internal voltage regulator.

You can get a cheap Digital Volt Meter (DVM) at Radio Shark or Autozone that is pretty accurate and just check across the battery terminals with the meter in the "D.C. 20 volt or 50 volt" range scale; black lead to - post and red lead to + post.
 
Another very common cause of rough or unstable idle is a dirty Mass Air Flow Sensor. This is a common complaint of folks that over-oil their K&N and Amsoil air filters. It can be removed and very gently cleaned with electronics parts cleaner (I have also heard denatured alcohol) and a cotton swab.
 
THANKS so much for the advice! I should have mentioned, they charged me $80 to clean the throttle body. I assume that that was rather thorough as it was gooped up, I gather that it was taken apart and that if the gasket was a problem, they'd fix or replace it. I also assume that vacuum lines were at least checked and that since the cleaning took an hour that is was rather thorough.
If it "returned no codes" wouldn't that mean (as was mentioned) that the ISC was functioning? And another thing: Granted a dead ECM will return no codes just as a dead car will not have an idle speed, but if the ECM is dead how am I driving along and getting 28 MPG?
I boosted a very, very dead car in August, found out the hard way that the advice I had been dispensing on how to boost a car was wrong. Now rule # 1 is to have the keys in your pocket if and when boosting. Had to get a new alternator. Could that have fried the ECM?
I'm inclined to listen to postings and have a second and third mechanic look at it.
Again, many thanks!
Rob
 
yep,
never keep your car on when boosting.
use extremely good cables so you don't have to run your car while boosting.

The most common problem is when boosting, it can and does damage to the rectifier circut in the alternator which will cause weaken or no charge at all. The fact your lights dim is what brings me more to the conclusion you may be having a low voltage problem and this will cause ecm/control problems. Have the charging system checked under load. Normal charging is around no higher than 13.8 volts dc output at the battery. if lower than 13 volts, then suspect charging system as causing you this grief, have fixed then go from there.

wish ya luck.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Scooter:
This is a common complaint of folks that over-oil their K&N and Amsoil air filters.

I have a slight dislike of Amsoil since I ordered one of their air filters. It was built in South Korea 3-4 years ago, and it's paper. Inquiries as to a return has fallen on deaf ears. It's a minor issue but it's still annoying. I either throw it out or delay the K&N installation by 6 months or more.
So how can I be getting 28-33 mpg and no significant drivability issues if I have a fried ISC and ECM? I really need a second (and third) mechanic to look at it.
My investement to this site was money well spent, I'm pretty happy!
 
glad to hear it rob. I agree, the ecm can't be fried, but when a mechanic has no real clue as to what is the problem they either blame the oil or the computer. SOP(standard operating proceedure).
 
So maybe the ECM is fine and this is an alternator or voltage issue? The alternator was replaced in August. Anything that has gone on and been tolerated 7 or more months in my mind doesn't deserve to be "fixed" for only $1300.
They also said they cannot aim my right headlight without replacing it. $150 for someone else's used one. Not a chance. It's been tolerable for 15 months and I'm going to pay $150 + to make it just so? No way. I'll re-think they $1000 + labor + tax when and if it stalls and won't run
confused.gif
 
question, if you have the car all warmed up at night and it's at lowest closed loop idle, with headlights etc. on is it normal for the lights to dim, and then brighten slightly when you give it some gas?


when i tested the voltage on the battery, it was putting about 14.2 V out with the lights off, engine on.

[ March 06, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Greg ]
 
Greg,

In your question, it would tend to be more the case of a weak battery, that underload, isn't holding the charge as well as a good battery nomally would thus putting a slight drain on the charging system to compensate. Also, the incorrect battery (amp) can cause this condition as well.
 
Just because it's new, if you don't have extra equipment like fog lamps, high output stereo going and such, then they could just have that set to where it will marginally handle the current load you have, either with a min amp battery or min amp alternator. Either way, it's not to say it's bad, just one of those engineering wonders.

To eliminate guessing, put the lights on, check vcc and see what it does while idle and then ramping up idle. Watch vcc, it should increase slightly with that kind of load. The other thing is to get a DC Amp gauge and see what kind of load you are using.

The main thing is, amps and voltage is two diffent things, and you can show having proper voltage but not have enough amps to carry the load. Example, you could take two 6volt lattern batteries, tie them together to make 12 volts, hook to the car in place of car battery, and it will still show 12volts but wont start the car.
That's because no amps, plenty of volts.

So, in this case, you can have plenty of volt's but if a under amperaged battery is used(or alternator), for the load you have, it can produce the same results you are describing.

hope that helps.

[ March 07, 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Greg, it might also be from a less than perfect ground circuit. Trace the negative battery cable to where it connects to the engine block (or starter motor mount), and make sure the connection is clean and tight.

If your negative batt cable has a smaller wire coming from it, connected to the radiator frame, clean and tighten it. This is another ground circuit for the headlights.
 
interesting. I just changed to a 'deep cycle' battery in my Outback to run fridge better (3yr old OEM Panasonic battery tested over 90% as new). First ECU reset by me and tendency to stall just after cold start and while backing out of garage seems to have gone. Peppier too I think. Minor problem now is that AM side of radio mucho noise. What that has to do with a new battery is beyond me!
 
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