Is this true about oil changes?
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T-Keith,
Good point! I agree, if you're "going cheap," use a ST or MC filter (or a Fram
). If it's being swapped out every 3k mi, I think you can safely use anything. Actually, with this short of an interval, you can probably just shunt the oil return with a gutted can & forget the filter all together!
[ April 22, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Eiron ]
Good point! I agree, if you're "going cheap," use a ST or MC filter (or a Fram
[ April 22, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Eiron ]
My .02 is that it depends on the particular engine.
For example there are 5 VW/Audi engines that come to mind.
170 HP 1.8T (Passat/A4)
90 HP 1.9 TDI (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle)
100 HP 1.9 PD-TDI (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle)
134 HP 2.0 PD-TDI (04 Passat TDI)
310 HP 5.0 PD-TDI (04 Touareg TDI)
For example the 170 HP 1.8T is somewhat of a sludge machine (not quite as bad as the 2.2/3.0 Toyotas), suprisngly VW says dino oil is ok at the 5000 mile OCI. It was enough concern for me that I was scared to use dino on our leased Passat 1.8T.
Then the older 90HP TDI. The rings were placed so close to the combustion chamber that it causes most dino oils to cook in the rings and cause ring sticking.
Now there is the PD-TDI which has such great loads imposed on the injector cam lobe. It is enough of a concern that the owners manual has warnings stating anything other then 505.01 oil can cause catastrophic engine failure.
Volkswagen does it again.
For example there are 5 VW/Audi engines that come to mind.
170 HP 1.8T (Passat/A4)
90 HP 1.9 TDI (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle)
100 HP 1.9 PD-TDI (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle)
134 HP 2.0 PD-TDI (04 Passat TDI)
310 HP 5.0 PD-TDI (04 Touareg TDI)
For example the 170 HP 1.8T is somewhat of a sludge machine (not quite as bad as the 2.2/3.0 Toyotas), suprisngly VW says dino oil is ok at the 5000 mile OCI. It was enough concern for me that I was scared to use dino on our leased Passat 1.8T.
Then the older 90HP TDI. The rings were placed so close to the combustion chamber that it causes most dino oils to cook in the rings and cause ring sticking.
Now there is the PD-TDI which has such great loads imposed on the injector cam lobe. It is enough of a concern that the owners manual has warnings stating anything other then 505.01 oil can cause catastrophic engine failure.
Volkswagen does it again.
Hmmmmm, well here's the defensive Toyota owner's response (I have had a VW too, a long-ago Jetta): Not as bad??? Toyota has their problem fixed, and even on the vulnerable cars, the problem can be avoided with proactive care. VW, on the other hand, persists upon building cars that are susceptible to failure with even minor oil errors. As you said, VW does it again. At least Toyota only did it once. . .
I like that extra protection when using dino oil and whose to say that one brand of oil will protect your engine in that 3k oil interval. I say dino is good for 3k whatever brand you use but if something should come up, I like that little protection for less that a buck a quart. The Delo 400 last a bit longer than 3k, and whats an extra $3-$5 oil change extra on the motor you got. Just by experience...want that peace of mind knowing my engines is protected with dino oil..Always use the Delo 400(if not using synthetic)...it's a habit...
So the picture I'm starting to see from the responses is if you are running a modern/new Toyota 4.7 V8 or the new Nissan 3.5 V6, and you use the OEM filter and change your oil using a dealer provided quality dino oil, the 3-4K mile change interval is great. If I wanted to use the OEM filter and say Mobil 1 10w30 synthetic, I could go to a 5-6K mile OCI and that would be just as good. So it is a matter of economic's as to using dino or synthetic? Since both engines are not driven under extreme conditions it seems to me that a 3-4K mile OCI using the dino and having the filter changed more often would be better??
In most cases.....mobil 1 or another quality synthetic can go more that 5-6k in most engines. Any good oil filter can go longer than 3k.
I have to put more stock in "grease is the word's mercruiser pf1218 study", as it takes the bypass valve out of the equation as far as flow is concerned.
I have to put more stock in "grease is the word's mercruiser pf1218 study", as it takes the bypass valve out of the equation as far as flow is concerned.
I've been running Amsoil for about 26 years in all my vehicles and equipment. and have been a registered dealer since 1980...Based on my experience, I'd rather buy a used vehicle that was run on a PAO/Ester based synthetic like Mobil 1 or Redline or Royal Purple and 7000-8000 mile drain intervals than a petroleum oil and 3000 mile drain intervals.
The engine lubed with synthetic will tend to have less wear and will be cleaner inside - particularly in the high temp areas of the engine like the ring pack,piston skirts and valve stem seals....
It would be fair to say that Nissan doesn't REQUIRE synthetic lubes for their engines. That's not the same as saying they don't recommend it, particularly for their high performance models. The Nissan andToyota engines do really well on Mobil 1, so I'd recommend running their 5w-30 or 10w-30 on both these motors, with a 7500 mile, oil/filter change interval.
Dealers want your money, so of course they'd like you to come in every 3000 miles for an oil change ....
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
The engine lubed with synthetic will tend to have less wear and will be cleaner inside - particularly in the high temp areas of the engine like the ring pack,piston skirts and valve stem seals....
It would be fair to say that Nissan doesn't REQUIRE synthetic lubes for their engines. That's not the same as saying they don't recommend it, particularly for their high performance models. The Nissan andToyota engines do really well on Mobil 1, so I'd recommend running their 5w-30 or 10w-30 on both these motors, with a 7500 mile, oil/filter change interval.
Dealers want your money, so of course they'd like you to come in every 3000 miles for an oil change ....
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
So, let me get this right.
If you use a cheap oil and change if often (3000 mile, it will be just a good as using a high quality oil and changing if 2, 3 or 5 times less?
Why not change is less then? In the long run, it will save you money.
I don't understand the logic of 3,000 mile oil changes. Don't you trust the oil to go father, say 3,500 miles? How about 4,000 or maybe 5,000. Who is to say that at 3,000 miles, you threw out bad oil. Maybe you think 3,000 it pushing it? Well, maybe go 2500? Who set up this 3000 mile goal, the manf. of vehicle, not unless you are under severe driving conditions and 99% of those here never fit into that category. Police cars, delivery trucks, taxis etc are what are severe usage are what they mean and these go longer the 3,000 miles on average. I drove a fleet vehicle for 30 yrs, every 5,000 miles not matter the time period. Yet people will blinding follow the 3,000 mile oil change, I guess they like to spend money and waste time going to the oil change shack to help the local economy. GM vehicles warn you when its time to change with a light but no one trusts GM to care yet they will insist you adhere to what oil they tell you to use, must be API certified or else but change oil only when light comes on, GM is trying to screw us.
edited for typos
[ April 25, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]
If you use a cheap oil and change if often (3000 mile, it will be just a good as using a high quality oil and changing if 2, 3 or 5 times less?
Why not change is less then? In the long run, it will save you money.
I don't understand the logic of 3,000 mile oil changes. Don't you trust the oil to go father, say 3,500 miles? How about 4,000 or maybe 5,000. Who is to say that at 3,000 miles, you threw out bad oil. Maybe you think 3,000 it pushing it? Well, maybe go 2500? Who set up this 3000 mile goal, the manf. of vehicle, not unless you are under severe driving conditions and 99% of those here never fit into that category. Police cars, delivery trucks, taxis etc are what are severe usage are what they mean and these go longer the 3,000 miles on average. I drove a fleet vehicle for 30 yrs, every 5,000 miles not matter the time period. Yet people will blinding follow the 3,000 mile oil change, I guess they like to spend money and waste time going to the oil change shack to help the local economy. GM vehicles warn you when its time to change with a light but no one trusts GM to care yet they will insist you adhere to what oil they tell you to use, must be API certified or else but change oil only when light comes on, GM is trying to screw us.
edited for typos
[ April 25, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]
Thanks Tooslick, I used Mobil 1 in my 95 Landcruiser, after I bought it with 36K miles. When I checked the valve clearence at 100K miles it looked like new. I used a 5K OCI. It had 136K on it when I traded it for the new 2004 4runner. I am sure that I will eventually go back to the Mobil 1, but based on possible warranty hassles and convenience, I will use the dealers for the new vehicles for the warranty period on a 3-4K miles OCI. I will trade both of these vehicles before I hit 100K miles. If I was planning on keeping them both for over 200K miles I would start earlier with the synthetic. But I still think that based on a 3-4K mile OCI using a good dino oil and OEM filters both of these vehicles could make it past 200K miles with no lube problems. I base this on what I have been reading on the UOA's on this site over the last few weeks.
I think that 3k is a good rule of thumb. Using a certain conventional, in certain engines, in certain climates, and certain drivers, and checking with UOA........will allow you to exceed 3k on a dino oil. But most people don't do UOA's........and many use whatever conventional is on sale for 69 cents......and there engine hasn't been tuned up in 100k......and they don't understand how a lead foot, or extremely short trips (the ol lady uses her car when she goes to a friends house........3 houses downquote:
Originally posted by Mike:
So, let me get this right.
If you use a cheap oil and change if often (3000 mile, it will be just a good as using a high quality oil and changing if 2, 3 or 5 times less?
Why not change is less then? In the long run, it will save you money.
I don't understand the logic of 3,000 mile oil changes. Don't you trust the oil to go father, say 3,500 miles? How about 4,000 or maybe 5,000. Who is to say that at 3,000 miles, you threw out bad oil. Maybe you think 3,000 it pushing it? Well, maybe go 2500? Who set up this 3000 mile goal, the manf. of vehicle, not unless you are under severe driving conditions and 99% of those here never fit into that category. Police cars, delivery trucks, taxis etc are what are severe usage are what they mean and these go longer the 3,000 miles on average. I drove a fleet vehicle for 30 yrs, every 5,000 miles not matter the time period. Yet people will blinding follow the 3,000 mile oil change, I guess they like to spend money and waste time going to the oil change shack to help the local economy. GM vehicles warn you when its time to change with a light but no one trusts GM to care yet they will insist you adhere to what oil they tell you to use, must be API certified or else but change oil only when light comes on, GM is trying to screw us.
edited for typos
[ April 25, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: sbc350gearhead ]
If you're only keeping a vehicle for 100k and you don't drive it hard and do reasonable oil changes it really doesn't matter what oil you use. If you only drive short distance city driving where the engine never warms up, 3000 mile intervals may not be enough.... and if you drive highway miles all the time so your engine does get up to operating temp 50000 to 75000 may well be OK. If you drive in a state where they put salt on the roads you could probably run cooking oil and your drivetrain would outlast the car body... lol
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Neither do I, Mike. But you may do "atypical" driving. Many autos don't push the mileage number ..many push the time weighted number. If I had a "local" vehicle from a "local" worker doing local (as in got up to full temp) driving ... probably 3 - 6 months is the number to use.
You've got to also figure on some type of frequency that works into a person's routine. If you're someone like my wife who does 18k a year ...you've got to somehow figure in something other than 3m/3k. I'm not going to do 4 oil changes a year for this type of driving ..so what am I gonna do? (I'm shooting for 1 year OCI).
We're oil nuts ..but the average joe/jane has much too much (other) stuff on their mind to keep their "eye on the ball" type thing in regards to oil changes. Hence the "safest" number is the 3m/3k dogma that still clings. My wrench friend frequently sees more and more cars that come in and ONLY get ONE annual oil change (he can tell by the filter and his windshield sticker) during the inspection cycle (using dino). The owners, women frequently, just add oil as needed at the full serve stations and don't worry about it beyond that. The cars still pass emissions specs and run just fine ...some doing over 15,000 miles. We would cringe
Not too many people have a "methodology" for determining OCI and even fewer use UOA ..so what would you call "safe advice"? 3k miles is a must for my Mistubishi 3.0 ..beyond that consumption occurs (well when I actually cared about it) regardless of time ...but on my 4.0 jeep (w/mods) ..10k is not too long.
I don't think GM is trying to screw you. I think the "oil life monitor" may help avert disaster and is useful in this regard.quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
So, let me get this right.
If you use a cheap oil and change if often (3000 mile, it will be just a good as using a high quality oil and changing if 2, 3 or 5 times less?
Why not change is less then? In the long run, it will save you money.
I don't understand the logic of 3,000 mile oil changes. Don't you trust the oil to go father, say 3,500 miles? How about 4,000 or maybe 5,000. Who is to say that at 3,000 miles, you threw out bad oil. Maybe you think 3,000 it pushing it? Well, maybe go 2500? Who set up this 3000 mile goal, the manf. of vehicle, not unless you are under severe driving conditions and 99% of those here never fit into that category. Police cars, delivery trucks, taxis etc are what are severe usage are what they mean and these go longer the 3,000 miles on average. I drove a fleet vehicle for 30 yrs, every 5,000 miles not matter the time period. Yet people will blinding follow the 3,000 mile oil change, I guess they like to spend money and waste time going to the oil change shack to help the local economy. GM vehicles warn you when its time to change with a light but no one trusts GM to care yet they will insist you adhere to what oil they tell you to use, must be API certified or else but change oil only when light comes on, GM is trying to screw us.
edited for typos
GM also recommends 3K oci's in dusty conditions and to not go beyond 7.5K or 12 months (in case the monitor is malfunctioning).
I think this is just some basic understanding of the American consumer.
I have never heard of GM voiding warranty, because you used an oil better than API standards.
Using oil like 20W-50 and above would place any warranty in jeopardy and oil that was inferior, like SA, SB, etc.
The monitor and the Starburst is just a good guideline that the consumer can understand, imho.
Gary I think you hit the nail on the head. That is why I like to buy my vehicles "new". I like you think it is improtant to take care of your vehicle. I even do this even though I don't keep them that long. I just can abuse a car.quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
We're oil nuts ..but the average joe/jane has much too much (other) stuff on their mind to keep their "eye on the ball" type thing in regards to oil changes. Hence the "safest" number is the 3m/3k dogma that still clings. My wrench friend frequently sees more and more cars that come in and ONLY get ONE annual oil change (he can tell by the filter and his windshield sticker) during the inspection cycle (using dino). The owners, women frequently, just add oil as needed at the full serve stations and don't worry about it beyond that. The cars still pass emissions specs and run just fine ...some doing over 15,000 miles. We would cringeat this type of care.
Interesting... Nissan changed the wording in there owners manual from '02 to '03 regarding oil recommendation.
'02: "Mineral based or synthetic type oils may be
used in your NISSAN vehicle. These oils must
however, meet the API quality and SAE viscosity
ratings specified for your vehicle. Do not
mix mineral based and synthetic type oils in
the engine at the same time."
'03: "NISSAN recommends mineral based oils.
These oils must however, meet the API quality
and SAE viscosity ratings specified for your
vehicle."
Wonder why...
Just about any oil on the market today will hold up well for 3k miles. I just don't want to have to crawl under my car every 3 months, and getting that oil filter off is no picnic either.
too slick, I also read the 03 manual for nissans, and the gentleman a few posts earlier was correct. MINERAL OIL only....but then G3 is mineral too is it not? Kind of a vague and perplexing statement imo. If my wife gets that new titan, I was planning on breaking it in on motorcraft 5w30 then after 10k going with havoline synthetic probably the 10w, I really like that oil.
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