There is a sizeable segment of the population that only wants "the best", or whatever is perceived as the best.
What do you think should be in this top tier air filter?
What do you think should be in this top tier air filter?
Is there a market for "better" air filters?
- Thread starter kanling
- Start date
- Status
Every little bit of dirt that comes into the airbox
... But with no pressure drop
I think we can all agree there is for oil filters. Pure One and Mobil immediately come to mind. But as far as disposable air filters(I'm excluding foam and cotton-gauze reusable filters since they tend to push flow), they all seem to filter equally well.
Blackstone Lab's recent newsletter concluded that silicon entering the engine is the #1 cause of all engine wear. With many of us dishing out extra $$ for top tier oil filters (me included) I would think one of the big manufacturers would come up with a top tier air filter. What do you guys think?
Blackstone Lab's recent newsletter concluded that silicon entering the engine is the #1 cause of all engine wear. With many of us dishing out extra $$ for top tier oil filters (me included) I would think one of the big manufacturers would come up with a top tier air filter. What do you guys think?
Ha. Good [humor] point. I would say currently there are no top tier filters. they all do a good job, akin to Purolator's white PremiumPlus versus the top tier PureOne. I'd pay extra for a PureOne-grade air filter.quote:
Originally posted by XS650:
Every little bit of dirt that comes into the airbox
I wonder how fancy media designed for home indoor air quality would work in a car air filter. Say media from a 3M Filtrete filter or even a HEPA filter- the ones that can capture bacteria and even some large viruses.
With a little care, you could probably make one yourself from an old air filter and a new home filter.
The only thing I would be worried about is the restriction. It might be that there are no really high grade air filters because the restriction would be too much. I know a lot of air conditioning pros don't recommend the Filtrete filters because they tend to restrict air flow too much.
With a little care, you could probably make one yourself from an old air filter and a new home filter.
The only thing I would be worried about is the restriction. It might be that there are no really high grade air filters because the restriction would be too much. I know a lot of air conditioning pros don't recommend the Filtrete filters because they tend to restrict air flow too much.
Actually looking at the SAE testing posted, there is a big difference in air filters. AC delco's filtered considerably better then other brands, although all the paper was above the cotton.
I guess the difference is that it's not advertised. Fram's new Tough guard filters are one example of a "premium" air filter, although we don't know how well they filter.
I guess the difference is that it's not advertised. Fram's new Tough guard filters are one example of a "premium" air filter, although we don't know how well they filter.
Something non-oiled, that is re-useable & filters as well as paper.
Donaldson power core. not reuseable, but high capacity and efficiency.
An electrostatic precipitator would be neat, too.
An electrostatic precipitator would be neat, too.
Perhaps THE reason that there aren't many choices of air filters, like there are with oil filters, is the random sizes and the space and inventory cost it takes to stock such an incredible variety. Some 'big brother' type agency should command from above that air cleaners may only come in 50 sizes (almost like vacuum cleaner bags). Auto makers must pick the most suitable one. Then you'd see the full spectrum of pricing and performance levels for those 50 sizes. Standardization: It might still happen.
i agree Tosh
I have to ask, that is a pretty blanket statement, what is it based on ?
Most filters start at @ 99% efficient based on the relevant SAE test, rising to 99.8-99.9% at the end of their service life.
To get better than this you meed much more restrictive media/square area, hence needing much larger primary surface area and hence a much larger air box. You are very limited with most cars under bonnet area, so, as with most things in life, it becomes a compromise.
The air filters used in large off-road machinery and trucks are a case in point. Air filtration is paramonut in these applications. There is more space to mount air cleaners, often external to the bodywork. Companies such as Donaldson, Nelson (Fleetguard/Cummins) and Mann-Hummel spend a fortune on R &D.
The next big step in air filtration is Nano-Fibre technology, being pioneered by Donaldson (US) and Mann-Hummel (Germany).
I WANT A MOBIL 1 AIR FILTER!!!.......YES I KNOW I'M SHOUTING.
and again I ask, based on what data ?
Aren't we delving into the realm of diminishing returns ?
OTR truck engines routinely last 1,000,000km if serviced correctly. Doug Hillary has posted the results of one of his DD 60 series engines pulled down @ 1,000,000km by MTU/Detroit in Australia, and all tolerances were within new spec.
OK, this isn't a car, yet the air filter uses exactly the same technology that is used in almost any car.
How long do you need an engine to last ? How many people need their cars to last 1,000,000km ? What about the rest of the driveline and body/chassis ?
Are engines wearing out prematurely due to poor air filtration ?
I'm sorry, but IMHO, just because a testing lab makes a (logical) statement that contaminants entering through the intake system wears out engines doesn't automatically correlate with "....we need better filters". I'd suggest that sloppy maintenance, poor practice when changing the filter, poor filter/air box sealing, etc, would introduce more contaminants of a size that contribute to wear over a vehicles lifetime than pass through an OEM spec air filter element.
tdi-rick, I respect your comments and you make some valid points. Engines today do last a very long time. My reason for posting this topic is looking at wear reduction from a sometimes overlooked source, air filtration. I know I've personally have gotten hung up oil filter brands. I've vacillated from AC Delco Gold UltraGuards to Mobil to PureOne to Purolators PremiumPlus to Wix to SuperTech
If the best UOAs consistently are coming from engines with superior air filtration, maybe THAT (silicon) should be my area of concern, not the oil filter. Given that, I would say today's paper filters are good (99%+ per SAE testing as you mentioned) but I would pay extra for "better". I don't know if we reached the physical limits of today's paper media efficiency given the confines of the manufacturer’s air box dimensions. I’d like to think we could do better
If the best UOAs consistently are coming from engines with superior air filtration, maybe THAT (silicon) should be my area of concern, not the oil filter. Given that, I would say today's paper filters are good (99%+ per SAE testing as you mentioned) but I would pay extra for "better". I don't know if we reached the physical limits of today's paper media efficiency given the confines of the manufacturer’s air box dimensions. I’d like to think we could do better
i believe better would be the over the rode filters from donaldson, baldwin, fleetguard...i use donaldson air filters
Years ago, I read about someone who was in an area while a volcano was erupting. He said that there was a lot of ash in the air and the only vehicles running after a while were those that had oil bath air cleaners. The others all ground their engines up so bad they wouldn't run.
If I have recalled this account correctly, it indicates that damaging particles can make it through a paper filter system.
Shouldn't we reach for a goal of having every engine with the same compression readings as new and running as good as new at 250,000 miles? If only a few more dollars for better filters would move us toward that goal, why not?
If I have recalled this account correctly, it indicates that damaging particles can make it through a paper filter system.
Shouldn't we reach for a goal of having every engine with the same compression readings as new and running as good as new at 250,000 miles? If only a few more dollars for better filters would move us toward that goal, why not?
I am sure we could do better, but why? Engines already outlast the body and interior with most any oil filter and any air filter (maybe even K&N).quote:
Originally posted by Razl:
If the best UOAs consistently are coming from engines with superior air filtration, maybe THAT (silicon) should be my area of concern, not the oil filter. Given that, I would say today's paper filters are good (99%+ per SAE testing as you mentioned) but I would pay extra for "better". I don't know if we reached the physical limits of today's paper media efficiency given the confines of the manufacturer’s air box dimensions. I’d like to think we could do better
- Status
