Is Rotella T-syn Group-III base?
- Thread starter FastSUV
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RTS is a grp III.
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Rotella T is a Group II base and the RTS is a Group III base.
JHZR2
Staff member
Why? do you REALLY think youll do better with a group IV syn?
The overall lubricant package, including adds is what determines the performance of it. RTS being Grp III is somewhat irrelevant and not indicative of what it can do, in and of itself.
It uses what many consider to be the most advanced group III basestock out there.
The overall lubricant package, including adds is what determines the performance of it. RTS being Grp III is somewhat irrelevant and not indicative of what it can do, in and of itself.
It uses what many consider to be the most advanced group III basestock out there.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Why? do you REALLY think youll do better with a group IV syn?
The overall lubricant package, including adds is what determines the performance of it. RTS being Grp III is somewhat irrelevant and not indicative of what it can do, in and of itself.
It uses what many consider to be the most advanced group III basestock out there.
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
Why? do you REALLY think youll do better with a group IV syn?
The overall lubricant package, including adds is what determines the performance of it. RTS being Grp III is somewhat irrelevant and not indicative of what it can do, in and of itself.
It uses what many consider to be the most advanced group III basestock out there.
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
dnewton3
Staff member
If you want HDEO, and viscosity for year round, then all the major brands (Delo, Delvac and Rotella) are available in dino 10w-30!
I run Rotella 10w-30 all year in my Dmax, Kubota, classic 289 Mustang, and sundry L&G air cooled equipment. It's going into the Goldwing next ...
I think you'd find great performance for a great price with these products. Especially with 4k mile OCIs.
I run Rotella 10w-30 all year in my Dmax, Kubota, classic 289 Mustang, and sundry L&G air cooled equipment. It's going into the Goldwing next ...
I think you'd find great performance for a great price with these products. Especially with 4k mile OCIs.
yeah I knew they did but it is hard to find and even harder in jugs 
....but you think 10w30 would be the way to go and stay what I was using? I figured the 5w50 t-syn would be best of all worlds? If I was gonna run 10w30 in HDEO I would probably use Mystik cause it is easier to find
....but you think 10w30 would be the way to go and stay what I was using? I figured the 5w50 t-syn would be best of all worlds? If I was gonna run 10w30 in HDEO I would probably use Mystik cause it is easier to find
dnewton3
Staff member
I was not aware that Mystik has a 10w-30 HDEO; interesting.
In my area, I've never seen Delo or Delvac in 10w-30 on the shelf, although my local AAP and AZ have both offered to order it for me.
My local Menards (hardware superstore) will carry Rotella year round; I can always find 10w-30 for sale in the fall, so I stock up. Also, my local Rural King (farm supply store) has Rotella 10w-30 in stock all the time, at suggested retail.
If you want 10w-30 HDEO, and look around, it's out there. Certainly the 5w-40 RTS will work for you, but with 4k mile OCIs, it's a bit overkill. I doubt your UOA would improve significantly using the RTS versus a 10w-30 HDEO, for such a short exposure. You could save money with the dino HDEO, even if you did have to order it; it'll always be nearly half the cost of the RTS.
In my area, I've never seen Delo or Delvac in 10w-30 on the shelf, although my local AAP and AZ have both offered to order it for me.
My local Menards (hardware superstore) will carry Rotella year round; I can always find 10w-30 for sale in the fall, so I stock up. Also, my local Rural King (farm supply store) has Rotella 10w-30 in stock all the time, at suggested retail.
If you want 10w-30 HDEO, and look around, it's out there. Certainly the 5w-40 RTS will work for you, but with 4k mile OCIs, it's a bit overkill. I doubt your UOA would improve significantly using the RTS versus a 10w-30 HDEO, for such a short exposure. You could save money with the dino HDEO, even if you did have to order it; it'll always be nearly half the cost of the RTS.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
Interesting... I was using the "stock" response, as typically the reason folks want to know is the opposite.
The add packs change from time to time, but as of last fall, rotella dino had a relatively lousy add pack, in testing performed by chevron (though it was in the top three of what they tested). Valvoline and castrol werent up to snuff in the tests that I was shown.
I used RTS 5w-40 for a long time in my BMW, and find it to be excellent oil. I wouldnt hesitate to use it as a year-round oil.
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
Interesting... I was using the "stock" response, as typically the reason folks want to know is the opposite.
The add packs change from time to time, but as of last fall, rotella dino had a relatively lousy add pack, in testing performed by chevron (though it was in the top three of what they tested). Valvoline and castrol werent up to snuff in the tests that I was shown.
I used RTS 5w-40 for a long time in my BMW, and find it to be excellent oil. I wouldnt hesitate to use it as a year-round oil.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
Interesting... I was using the "stock" response, as typically the reason folks want to know is the opposite.
The add packs change from time to time, but as of last fall, rotella dino had a relatively lousy add pack, in testing performed by chevron (though it was in the top three of what they tested). Valvoline and castrol werent up to snuff in the tests that I was shown.
I used RTS 5w-40 for a long time in my BMW, and find it to be excellent oil. I wouldnt hesitate to use it as a year-round oil.
so u are saying that maybe delo is a better dino HDEO oil based on additive pkg data u saw? But you are saying that the T-syn is an exception to this and that it might be okay?
I guess I am trying to find out the best dino HD oil and people sure seem to like delo. Mystik is good stuff too I'm sure.
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
On the contrary, I do not want a PAO oil for this flat tappet motor...I think dino offers better protection, but since GP-III is derived from dino, I might have been open to trying the Rotella synthetic instead of the regular rotella. I suppose it matters on my OCI which is currently 4k so maybe the standard rotella would be best but 14w40 is a bit thick for winter use (I only want to have to buy one grade year round!) so I might get the 5w40 instead anyway.
Right now she has 79k and PP HM formula 10w30 in there...I have some Max-life to try next but I have been thinking alot about the HDEO oils lately for some reason.
How do the others stack up to standard Rotella T dino? Like the Blue Valvoline, and the Castrol stuff?
Interesting... I was using the "stock" response, as typically the reason folks want to know is the opposite.
The add packs change from time to time, but as of last fall, rotella dino had a relatively lousy add pack, in testing performed by chevron (though it was in the top three of what they tested). Valvoline and castrol werent up to snuff in the tests that I was shown.
I used RTS 5w-40 for a long time in my BMW, and find it to be excellent oil. I wouldnt hesitate to use it as a year-round oil.
so u are saying that maybe delo is a better dino HDEO oil based on additive pkg data u saw? But you are saying that the T-syn is an exception to this and that it might be okay?
I guess I am trying to find out the best dino HD oil and people sure seem to like delo. Mystik is good stuff too I'm sure.
As dnewton said, the Shell RT 10W-30 is a great product, but I am oil obsessive and tend to try and use the best. If HDEO is what you want use the RTS 5W-40 year round in Tulsa and sleep well at night.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
What would you expect a Chevron report to say since Shell is a pain in their rear end. I've seen many Shell reports that would say just the opposite.
As dnewton said, the Shell RT 10W-30 is a great product, but I am oil obsessive and tend to try and use the best. If HDEO is what you want use the RTS 5W-40 year round in Tulsa and sleep well at night.
Yukon actually...work in OKC...u think on a CA emmissions vehicle though that the rotella could foul the O2's and/or cats? It doesn't use much if any oil
As dnewton said, the Shell RT 10W-30 is a great product, but I am oil obsessive and tend to try and use the best. If HDEO is what you want use the RTS 5W-40 year round in Tulsa and sleep well at night.
Yukon actually...work in OKC...u think on a CA emmissions vehicle though that the rotella could foul the O2's and/or cats? It doesn't use much if any oil
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Johnny
What would you expect a Chevron report to say since Shell is a pain in their rear end. I've seen many Shell reports that would say just the opposite.
As dnewton said, the Shell RT 10W-30 is a great product, but I am oil obsessive and tend to try and use the best. If HDEO is what you want use the RTS 5W-40 year round in Tulsa and sleep well at night.
This was from their lead chemists, and was quite fair, IMO.
I see "doctored" data and data tailored or plotted to make something look "the best" all the time. I gave those guys the what for, and they were able to respond well. Their results were fair, no claims of being 4x this or 46% that. Just that the latest formulations of delo lead the group in performance tests, and in some they led by a tiny bit (or were equal) others by a fair margin, especially compared to products offered by others on the charts. And this included a host of industry standard performance test results too.
It is not a game of mobil 1 vs valvoline that is being played... this was an attempt at what appeared to me to be an honest comparison, and showed slightly better performance of Delo LE 400 than rotella and delvac 1300.
I need to source the presentations. Their research group does good work and has made some very nice papers and presentations, especially at SAE. I don't think you can deny that?
As dnewton said, the Shell RT 10W-30 is a great product, but I am oil obsessive and tend to try and use the best. If HDEO is what you want use the RTS 5W-40 year round in Tulsa and sleep well at night.
This was from their lead chemists, and was quite fair, IMO.
I see "doctored" data and data tailored or plotted to make something look "the best" all the time. I gave those guys the what for, and they were able to respond well. Their results were fair, no claims of being 4x this or 46% that. Just that the latest formulations of delo lead the group in performance tests, and in some they led by a tiny bit (or were equal) others by a fair margin, especially compared to products offered by others on the charts. And this included a host of industry standard performance test results too.
It is not a game of mobil 1 vs valvoline that is being played... this was an attempt at what appeared to me to be an honest comparison, and showed slightly better performance of Delo LE 400 than rotella and delvac 1300.
I need to source the presentations. Their research group does good work and has made some very nice papers and presentations, especially at SAE. I don't think you can deny that?
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JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
so u are saying that maybe delo is a better dino HDEO oil based on additive pkg data u saw? But you are saying that the T-syn is an exception to this and that it might be okay?
I guess I am trying to find out the best dino HD oil and people sure seem to like delo. Mystik is good stuff too I'm sure.
I am saying that from what I saw, including industry-relevant performance tests, not relevant to your engine, Delo 400 LE outperformed Shell, Mobil, 76, Philips (IIRC), Petro Canada, and a few others, which I do not recall).
Now, in my MB diesels, I found a MPG decrease using Delo 400, and better running/MPG using rotella T. In my BMW, it seems that rotella Syn gives better startup behavior (in terms of noise) than Schaeffer's 9000!
You cannot go wrong with any. There may be aspects of the various chemistries that you want to buy to, but none of these oils are going to be lousy... You may have to discern the rest from UOA.
Delo may not have enough Zn for your application. i do not know. Does RTS? perhaps, maybe not.
I have seen data that indicates that the latest formulations of Delo 400 really perform well. Beyond that, I cannot say anything. Unfortunately, UOA has to pave the way much beyond that. I'd suggest taking a look at UOAs and VOAs for some of the insight that you may want.
so u are saying that maybe delo is a better dino HDEO oil based on additive pkg data u saw? But you are saying that the T-syn is an exception to this and that it might be okay?
I guess I am trying to find out the best dino HD oil and people sure seem to like delo. Mystik is good stuff too I'm sure.
I am saying that from what I saw, including industry-relevant performance tests, not relevant to your engine, Delo 400 LE outperformed Shell, Mobil, 76, Philips (IIRC), Petro Canada, and a few others, which I do not recall).
Now, in my MB diesels, I found a MPG decrease using Delo 400, and better running/MPG using rotella T. In my BMW, it seems that rotella Syn gives better startup behavior (in terms of noise) than Schaeffer's 9000!
You cannot go wrong with any. There may be aspects of the various chemistries that you want to buy to, but none of these oils are going to be lousy... You may have to discern the rest from UOA.
Delo may not have enough Zn for your application. i do not know. Does RTS? perhaps, maybe not.
I have seen data that indicates that the latest formulations of Delo 400 really perform well. Beyond that, I cannot say anything. Unfortunately, UOA has to pave the way much beyond that. I'd suggest taking a look at UOAs and VOAs for some of the insight that you may want.
Hello JHZR2,
can you provide some information from the Delo vs. Delvac 1 comparison that you have been refering to in another thread?
Was it the SAE paper 2001-01-1968 ? Where can I find it?
can you provide some information from the Delo vs. Delvac 1 comparison that you have been refering to in another thread?
Was it the SAE paper 2001-01-1968 ? Where can I find it?
dnewton3
Staff member
Any SAE paper that old is not relevant to what can be purchased today in the US/Canadian market.
JHZR2
Staff member
I don't know if that is the case...
Hiw significantly has the basestock of Delo 400 or delvac 1 changed in the last 8-10 years? Much?
Is delo 400 all of a sudden highly energy conserving and delvac 1 all of a sudden group III?
Add packs for detergency, dispersancy and wear control may havew changed, but the SAE paper cited was mainly focused on fuel economy. Unless physics or engine design has changed much, I do not know that there is a huge variation from what was claimed.
Ability to pass certain tests? perhaps. Fundamentally changing physics of operation for a relatively similar FM additization, viscosity and engine clearance set... I do not know...
Hiw significantly has the basestock of Delo 400 or delvac 1 changed in the last 8-10 years? Much?
Is delo 400 all of a sudden highly energy conserving and delvac 1 all of a sudden group III?
Add packs for detergency, dispersancy and wear control may havew changed, but the SAE paper cited was mainly focused on fuel economy. Unless physics or engine design has changed much, I do not know that there is a huge variation from what was claimed.
Ability to pass certain tests? perhaps. Fundamentally changing physics of operation for a relatively similar FM additization, viscosity and engine clearance set... I do not know...
dnewton3
Staff member
You do have a good point. I guess the reality is that we don't know how much it's changed. A new SAE study would reveal that.
I agree that the fundementals of viscosity haven't changed, but that's manipulated to meet API grade specs anyway; they can target a vis range via construction and blending. To that end, I agree with you that fuel economy hasn't changed much. The pumping losses due to viscosity are likely not changed. But since the base stocks likely have been tweaked, the applicability of that test in 2001 is certainly questionable when looking at today's oils.
I agree that the fundementals of viscosity haven't changed, but that's manipulated to meet API grade specs anyway; they can target a vis range via construction and blending. To that end, I agree with you that fuel economy hasn't changed much. The pumping losses due to viscosity are likely not changed. But since the base stocks likely have been tweaked, the applicability of that test in 2001 is certainly questionable when looking at today's oils.
8-10 years ago, Delo 400 was made with Group I base stocks and an additive package to work with that base stock. Modern day Delo 400 is made from Group II+ base stocks with a better additive package than 8-10 years ago.
JHZR2
Staff member
So if 8-10 years ago, the claims in the SAE paper were such that at best youll save 0.5% fuel with synthetic Delvac 1 compared to Delo... how much do we postulate that things have changed?
Does using better basestock and adds magically let delo 400 become a 5% fuel hog, or tighten the savings gap from 0.5% to 0.1%? I doubt it, and this is my point. Better performance in terms of dispersion, wear control, etc., likely. Truly better fuel savings (the point of the SAE paper)? likely no difference, as physics hasnt changed. If anything, Delo 400 probably has closed the gap with the top syn oils in 5w-40 in terms of fuel savings.
The data (which I talk about but do not truly cite - shame on me, and Ill do my best to find) about performance in recent tests, is, indeed recent. Until I provide the data, nobody need believe me... but it doesnt mean that they or I are lying.
Does using better basestock and adds magically let delo 400 become a 5% fuel hog, or tighten the savings gap from 0.5% to 0.1%? I doubt it, and this is my point. Better performance in terms of dispersion, wear control, etc., likely. Truly better fuel savings (the point of the SAE paper)? likely no difference, as physics hasnt changed. If anything, Delo 400 probably has closed the gap with the top syn oils in 5w-40 in terms of fuel savings.
The data (which I talk about but do not truly cite - shame on me, and Ill do my best to find) about performance in recent tests, is, indeed recent. Until I provide the data, nobody need believe me... but it doesnt mean that they or I are lying.
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