The taco and jetta doesnt use a single drop...so i cant really comment.
Is oil consumption always a bad thing?
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It seems like driving conditions have to play a part in this too, right? Both with respect to how conditions influence fuel dilution and engine load.
Originally Posted By: rationull
It seems like driving conditions have to play a part in this too, right? Both with respect to how conditions influence fuel dilution and engine load.
Yes. Considering how buster drives, I'd be very surprised if his engine did not consume any oil.
It seems like driving conditions have to play a part in this too, right? Both with respect to how conditions influence fuel dilution and engine load.
Yes. Considering how buster drives, I'd be very surprised if his engine did not consume any oil.
Engines are smaller nowadays. That alone would account for the decrease in oil consumption that we see.
Better fuel control with fuel injection leads to less ring/bore/piston wear, and less oil consumption as the engine ages.
And I'm sure they are put together a bit tighter and more consistently now.
Some street race engine builders will actually INCREASE the oil use by substituting different rings. They are shooting for guaranteed cylinder lubrication. Something like 1 qt./2,000 miles.
An engine can run well with a lot of oil use, but I would not be happy with 1 qt/2,000 miles or less usage today.
Better fuel control with fuel injection leads to less ring/bore/piston wear, and less oil consumption as the engine ages.
And I'm sure they are put together a bit tighter and more consistently now.
Some street race engine builders will actually INCREASE the oil use by substituting different rings. They are shooting for guaranteed cylinder lubrication. Something like 1 qt./2,000 miles.
An engine can run well with a lot of oil use, but I would not be happy with 1 qt/2,000 miles or less usage today.
Hi,
buster - Oil consumption is not a bad thing. Excessive oil consumption is! The engine manufacturer's guidelines on "excessive" should be noted. For instance some MB engines have their limits set on the oil use against fuel consumed - closely monitored. This is the best way to monitor oil use as it takes into account individual driving styles
Porsche and MB have used 1.5ltrs/1000kms as their "excessive" baseline for 30 years or so - possible longer too
Of the Porsche cars I've owned all except one had zero use out to 20kkms OCIs - the exception (at 160kkms) used about 1ltr/3000kms
Some engine manufacturers design in an oil useage factor for a number of reasons
Many German engines made with Alusil and etc (silicate impreganated alloys) do have a rough bore finish. They require a special honing process that leaves the silicate particles pround of the base material. This tends to hold the lubricant. Some of these engines (also from Benz and others) have up to 900kkms without major bore/piston/ring pack replacements
My Detroit Diesels all averaged around 1ltr/6000kms for millions of kms
MB on their oldest diesels factored oil use in. In their very durable OM326 family it was considered normal/expected to use 1.1 pints for 100miles! The specified oil was an HD product from their Approved Lubricants List with viscosities of 10W, 10W-20 (below -13F) and above this temperature, 20W-20 or SAE30
Most people do get concerned at having to add any oil at all between OCIs. Usually this is caused by misinformation and many myths and old wives tales
Many engines have a sweet spot betweem H & L on the dipstick and oil will be consumed up to that point. Thereafter usage may be nil - adding then is IMHO a waste of a valuable resource
buster - Oil consumption is not a bad thing. Excessive oil consumption is! The engine manufacturer's guidelines on "excessive" should be noted. For instance some MB engines have their limits set on the oil use against fuel consumed - closely monitored. This is the best way to monitor oil use as it takes into account individual driving styles
Porsche and MB have used 1.5ltrs/1000kms as their "excessive" baseline for 30 years or so - possible longer too
Of the Porsche cars I've owned all except one had zero use out to 20kkms OCIs - the exception (at 160kkms) used about 1ltr/3000kms
Some engine manufacturers design in an oil useage factor for a number of reasons
Many German engines made with Alusil and etc (silicate impreganated alloys) do have a rough bore finish. They require a special honing process that leaves the silicate particles pround of the base material. This tends to hold the lubricant. Some of these engines (also from Benz and others) have up to 900kkms without major bore/piston/ring pack replacements
My Detroit Diesels all averaged around 1ltr/6000kms for millions of kms
MB on their oldest diesels factored oil use in. In their very durable OM326 family it was considered normal/expected to use 1.1 pints for 100miles! The specified oil was an HD product from their Approved Lubricants List with viscosities of 10W, 10W-20 (below -13F) and above this temperature, 20W-20 or SAE30
Most people do get concerned at having to add any oil at all between OCIs. Usually this is caused by misinformation and many myths and old wives tales
Many engines have a sweet spot betweem H & L on the dipstick and oil will be consumed up to that point. Thereafter usage may be nil - adding then is IMHO a waste of a valuable resource
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I'm the 06 Civic SI owner with the 14.5k mile UOA that helped initiate Buster's OP.
I've had consumption of 1 quart every 1500-2000 miles up to 26k miles, and then slowed drastically to 1 quart every ~4-5k miles. This happened around the same time as a switch to AMSOIL and a change in driving habits (which happened within 4000 miles of each other) due to a new commute with much longer highway and no twisty backroads.
I've done 2 UOAs....consulted with a ton of honda experts (like the owners of "The Temple of VTEC")....examined my engine through the oil filter cap....peered up my exhaust tip. You know, the usual stuff
In this engine, it's fine. I have no concerns about it. The engine is running very clean and shows great efficiency. It runs rich, and I think between a rich running engine, high RPM engine, and ring design, that oil consumption in this engine is a byproduct of normal operation.
All I personally want is reduced consumption. But 1 quart every 5,000 miles (a normal person's oil change interval) is just fine. I can deal with that. I think of it as refreshing the oil. Would I like less? Sure.
Joe
I've had consumption of 1 quart every 1500-2000 miles up to 26k miles, and then slowed drastically to 1 quart every ~4-5k miles. This happened around the same time as a switch to AMSOIL and a change in driving habits (which happened within 4000 miles of each other) due to a new commute with much longer highway and no twisty backroads.
I've done 2 UOAs....consulted with a ton of honda experts (like the owners of "The Temple of VTEC")....examined my engine through the oil filter cap....peered up my exhaust tip. You know, the usual stuff
In this engine, it's fine. I have no concerns about it. The engine is running very clean and shows great efficiency. It runs rich, and I think between a rich running engine, high RPM engine, and ring design, that oil consumption in this engine is a byproduct of normal operation.
All I personally want is reduced consumption. But 1 quart every 5,000 miles (a normal person's oil change interval) is just fine. I can deal with that. I think of it as refreshing the oil. Would I like less? Sure.
Joe
Originally Posted By: buster
I posted this in another thread (SSO/14k mile thread).
I think mostly it is just an inconvenience (having to add oil occasionally). Only car owners seem to be upset by oil consumption. OEM's are not. In fact, 1 qt per 1000 miles is acceptable.
I think most peoples' analysis of "why engines burn oil" is based on the false idea that an engine shouldn't burn any oil and if it does burn some oil then something must be wrong with it. Thoughts? The Toyota I had burned 1qt per 3k miles from day 1 and ran like new with 180,000 miles.
I was told/read that most high output engines will always use some amount of oil as keeping the top rings lubricated at high loads and high RPM is impossible without loosing some oil past the rings.
I've read that many engines have very aggressive cylinder wall finishes to maintain oil on the cylinder walls to keep the rings lubricated in high power levels. With that you can often end up with high oil consumption.
BMW had oil consumption issues in their M series engines. They actually replaced engines that failed from oil starvation due to the high rate of oil consumption that was apparently normal due to the aggressive cylinder wall finish and low tension ring pack.
So I'm not sure what is the right answer as far as whether it's ok or normal for some engines to use oil, or whether it's an engineering flaw. I want to say that no engine should burn oil under ideal circumstances.
Have any of you had cars that burned oil from day one and lasted a long time?
None of my cars (except my Rx8 due to it being a rotary) ever had oil consumption while I had them.
And saying one quart per 1000 miles DOSE NOT seem acceptable to me at all.
You said ''most peoples analysis of why engines burn oil is based on the false idea that an engine shouldn't burn any oil and if it does burn some oil then something must be wrong with it''
I do not think that is a false statement.
Altough nothing major is wrong. You could probly get the same amount of miles out of the oil burning engine, and you may not be able to fix the issue. But If you have two of the same engines, and one burns oil and one dose not. There is SOMETHNG diffrent in the one that burns oil.
Also, what you said about the M series engines in BMWs. My M3 never used oil. I gave it a 5000 mile OCI, the car had 130,000 miles on it when I bought it. it had 199,000 miles on it when I sold it. It never used any oil inbetween oil changes.
Some engines due to design burn oil, or can become oil burners ver easy. It may be normal for some engines, but I would not call it the norm, and I would not say its ok to burn alot of oil over a long time unless you like replacing emmission systems.
All that said.
A car that dose not use any oil is not automatically going to get more miles then a oil burner. I do not think a slow oil usage will render a motor "bad".
oil burner or not, take care of it with good maintaince and it should give you a good run.
I posted this in another thread (SSO/14k mile thread).
I think mostly it is just an inconvenience (having to add oil occasionally). Only car owners seem to be upset by oil consumption. OEM's are not. In fact, 1 qt per 1000 miles is acceptable.
I think most peoples' analysis of "why engines burn oil" is based on the false idea that an engine shouldn't burn any oil and if it does burn some oil then something must be wrong with it. Thoughts? The Toyota I had burned 1qt per 3k miles from day 1 and ran like new with 180,000 miles.
I was told/read that most high output engines will always use some amount of oil as keeping the top rings lubricated at high loads and high RPM is impossible without loosing some oil past the rings.
I've read that many engines have very aggressive cylinder wall finishes to maintain oil on the cylinder walls to keep the rings lubricated in high power levels. With that you can often end up with high oil consumption.
BMW had oil consumption issues in their M series engines. They actually replaced engines that failed from oil starvation due to the high rate of oil consumption that was apparently normal due to the aggressive cylinder wall finish and low tension ring pack.
So I'm not sure what is the right answer as far as whether it's ok or normal for some engines to use oil, or whether it's an engineering flaw. I want to say that no engine should burn oil under ideal circumstances.
Have any of you had cars that burned oil from day one and lasted a long time?
None of my cars (except my Rx8 due to it being a rotary) ever had oil consumption while I had them.
And saying one quart per 1000 miles DOSE NOT seem acceptable to me at all.
You said ''most peoples analysis of why engines burn oil is based on the false idea that an engine shouldn't burn any oil and if it does burn some oil then something must be wrong with it''
I do not think that is a false statement.
Altough nothing major is wrong. You could probly get the same amount of miles out of the oil burning engine, and you may not be able to fix the issue. But If you have two of the same engines, and one burns oil and one dose not. There is SOMETHNG diffrent in the one that burns oil.
Also, what you said about the M series engines in BMWs. My M3 never used oil. I gave it a 5000 mile OCI, the car had 130,000 miles on it when I bought it. it had 199,000 miles on it when I sold it. It never used any oil inbetween oil changes.
Some engines due to design burn oil, or can become oil burners ver easy. It may be normal for some engines, but I would not call it the norm, and I would not say its ok to burn alot of oil over a long time unless you like replacing emmission systems.
All that said.
A car that dose not use any oil is not automatically going to get more miles then a oil burner. I do not think a slow oil usage will render a motor "bad".
oil burner or not, take care of it with good maintaince and it should give you a good run.
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I think that anyone who has never had any consumption is just too young. They had to be buying cars built in the mid-80's or there about = forward. Injection and some improvements in manufacturing. Any consumption now is either an oddity or a design characteristic ..perhaps under the service that it's subjected to (something like highway police usage with 5w-20 in Crown Vic's).
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I don't think that it much matters in your bread and butter appliance (includes most) ..but I don't think I'd extend that to all of them. More than enough people have done nothing but drive the things and report no consumption. I do it out of habit.
I liked how Doug included initial fill volatility into his post. Encountering it is rare(r) these days in most rides.
I keep seeing that many of the consumption issues here are traced to crankcase ventilation issues/design problems.
I liked how Doug included initial fill volatility into his post. Encountering it is rare(r) these days in most rides.
I keep seeing that many of the consumption issues here are traced to crankcase ventilation issues/design problems.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I don't think that it much matters in your bread and butter appliance (includes most) ..but I don't think I'd extend that to all of them. More than enough people have done nothing but drive the things and report no consumption. I do it out of habit.
I liked how Doug included initial fill volatility into his post. Encountering it is rare(r) these days in most rides.
I keep seeing that many of the consumption issues here are traced to crankcase ventilation issues/design problems.
I think you are right.
I don't think that it much matters in your bread and butter appliance (includes most) ..but I don't think I'd extend that to all of them. More than enough people have done nothing but drive the things and report no consumption. I do it out of habit.
I liked how Doug included initial fill volatility into his post. Encountering it is rare(r) these days in most rides.
I keep seeing that many of the consumption issues here are traced to crankcase ventilation issues/design problems.
I think you are right.
Hi,
buster - Two elements with new engine run in need to be considered - from my experience!
1 - Be very careful about changing the factory fill until recommended by the manufacturer. If you do change it be careful to very closely follow the manufacturer's lubricant specification
"Better" lubricants may turn out to be a disaster
I have been involved in many many situations where the lubricant has been changed and "run in" has been delayed or destroyed. This has often needed an engine tear down to rectify!
2 - Never baby a new engine. Drive it in a systematic way with WOT operation for short periods and "pulling" for 10-30 seconds as and when convenient. Monitor coolant temps and oil pressure/temperature if possible. Be sensible! Avoid high revs for the first 1-2000kms. Drive it in a love hate manner - do not [censored] foot it!
buster - Two elements with new engine run in need to be considered - from my experience!
1 - Be very careful about changing the factory fill until recommended by the manufacturer. If you do change it be careful to very closely follow the manufacturer's lubricant specification
"Better" lubricants may turn out to be a disaster
I have been involved in many many situations where the lubricant has been changed and "run in" has been delayed or destroyed. This has often needed an engine tear down to rectify!
2 - Never baby a new engine. Drive it in a systematic way with WOT operation for short periods and "pulling" for 10-30 seconds as and when convenient. Monitor coolant temps and oil pressure/temperature if possible. Be sensible! Avoid high revs for the first 1-2000kms. Drive it in a love hate manner - do not [censored] foot it!
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Howdy all,
I drive an '02 Taurus with 129k Miles. Most of them cross country miles, and I have always been sure to change 3-5000 miles. As a matter of fact my first brake job was done at a little bit over 120,000 miles.
3 oil changes ago I realized that I was going through 2 quarts of dino between changes. For the past 2 changes I switched to Valvoline High Mileage 10w30. The burning and leak around my valve cover gaskets has gone away and it seems to run smoother. If I had a car that had a small leak, or burned off oil, my first option would be to go to the 10w30 High Mileage route.
If that didn't work I would try the 10w40 mix that seems to be popular at Wally world. Remember that it might take awhile for that to kick in, so buy a few quarts and keep topping off with the high mileage stuff.
Sure it isnt a rebuild or a new gasket, but it is also alot cheaper.
Oh yeah, check out the Auto RX solutions that are posted in the other forums.
I drive an '02 Taurus with 129k Miles. Most of them cross country miles, and I have always been sure to change 3-5000 miles. As a matter of fact my first brake job was done at a little bit over 120,000 miles.
3 oil changes ago I realized that I was going through 2 quarts of dino between changes. For the past 2 changes I switched to Valvoline High Mileage 10w30. The burning and leak around my valve cover gaskets has gone away and it seems to run smoother. If I had a car that had a small leak, or burned off oil, my first option would be to go to the 10w30 High Mileage route.
If that didn't work I would try the 10w40 mix that seems to be popular at Wally world. Remember that it might take awhile for that to kick in, so buy a few quarts and keep topping off with the high mileage stuff.
Sure it isnt a rebuild or a new gasket, but it is also alot cheaper.
Oh yeah, check out the Auto RX solutions that are posted in the other forums.
Yeah a quart every 1000 miles is OTT - you might as well dump a quart in your gas tank when you fill up at that rate (not). For most factory recommended OCI wouldn't that make them dangerously low imagine if you never checked the dipstick and let it run for the whole 5k?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think that anyone who has never had any consumption is just too young....
Amen to that!
I grew up driving junkers that wouldn't be allowed on the road today. 1 qt per 1000 miles isn't even in consideration as an "oil burner". We pour gallons and gallons of gasoline in our vehicles with nary a care, but let it burn $2 worth of oil in 1000 miles and it's ready for the scrap heap.
I think that anyone who has never had any consumption is just too young....
Amen to that!
I grew up driving junkers that wouldn't be allowed on the road today. 1 qt per 1000 miles isn't even in consideration as an "oil burner". We pour gallons and gallons of gasoline in our vehicles with nary a care, but let it burn $2 worth of oil in 1000 miles and it's ready for the scrap heap.
Consumption for many engines is related to how hard you push them (especially on the highway). If your cruising 80-90 mph on the highway for a few hours, many engines will consume a certain amount of oil. Though with some engine designs there might be little to no consumption.
My VW owners manual states oil consumption is normal during high speed driving. Only time I've noticed any consumption is on extended highway trips, and usually I have a quart stowed away for any top up.
My VW owners manual states oil consumption is normal during high speed driving. Only time I've noticed any consumption is on extended highway trips, and usually I have a quart stowed away for any top up.
My 07 Civic burns about a quart in 6000 miles and has since new. It's got about 30k on it now and the rate has been the same through multiple brands of oil. My previous cars have all burned oil too (more than this one), but I got them with pretty high mileage. The Civic's burning doesn't really bother me because it's so light, but I definitely wasn't expecting it. I don't really drive fast, but I've got a long, steep hill on my daily commute which translates to heavy load/high RPM on the way up and high vacuum on the way down. As discussed in my recent thread on the topic, neither of those are likely to help the situation. The GF's Volvo burns between .5 and 1 quart in 5000 miles.
Back on topic, the only thing I can think of that would be bad about a little consumption is its effect on the emissions equipment, or on the throttle body etc if it's coming through the PCV system. I'm not really sure how much of a problem this is, but it seems like if it were a problem, we'd be hearing about it in this thread from people with a lot of miles under their belts.
Back on topic, the only thing I can think of that would be bad about a little consumption is its effect on the emissions equipment, or on the throttle body etc if it's coming through the PCV system. I'm not really sure how much of a problem this is, but it seems like if it were a problem, we'd be hearing about it in this thread from people with a lot of miles under their belts.
Originally Posted By: Lazy JW
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think that anyone who has never had any consumption is just too young....
I grew up driving junkers that wouldn't be allowed on the road today. 1 qt per 1000 miles isn't even in consideration as an "oil burner". We pour gallons and gallons of gasoline in our vehicles with nary a care, but let it burn $2 worth of oil in 1000 miles and it's ready for the scrap heap.
Cars are DESIGNED to consume gallons and gallons of gasoline. They are not designed to consume 1 qt of oil every 1k miles. There's nothing acceptable or normal about a modern engine using that much oil, regardless of how things used to be in the olden days.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think that anyone who has never had any consumption is just too young....
I grew up driving junkers that wouldn't be allowed on the road today. 1 qt per 1000 miles isn't even in consideration as an "oil burner". We pour gallons and gallons of gasoline in our vehicles with nary a care, but let it burn $2 worth of oil in 1000 miles and it's ready for the scrap heap.
Cars are DESIGNED to consume gallons and gallons of gasoline. They are not designed to consume 1 qt of oil every 1k miles. There's nothing acceptable or normal about a modern engine using that much oil, regardless of how things used to be in the olden days.
Patman
Staff member
Both of my cars use about a quart every 4-5k, and as long as it stays around that level I'm ok with that. I wouldn't want it to ever get to the point where I need to add two quarts of top up oil for every OCI though.
One engine which historically burns a lot of oil but has a very long service life is the Ford 302.
One engine which historically burns a lot of oil but has a very long service life is the Ford 302.
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