Is Lubegard Red necessary....?

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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Now let me ask you. Have you even tried this product?


I sure have Trav.
thankyou2.gif


I have even analyzed the additive separately and the ATF it was in.

Performance wise, I noticed no difference in shifting or temperature differences in both GM and Nissan vehicles.

I hope all of you realize that I am playing the DEVIL'S advocate and am trying to get you to think critically about ANY additive and the claims they may make.
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We're adults here, and don't need someone to "get us to think critically", so you can step down from that pedestal. You don't have the market cornered on thinking critically.

The fact that many of us have used this or any product...you know, actual experience...on a variety of cars with noticeable improvements makes no difference because we don't have a mechanism to "prove it"?

Please.

No one knew why aspirin worked for decades but that didn't stop millions from using it for easing many a headache or mild pain.

While LG Red didn't make a discernable difference for you and some others, that's fine. It's in the range of experiences we all have with given products, whether leak sealants, injector cleaners, etc.

My objection was someone's never trying a product then saying it's useless.
 
Originally Posted By: eagle23
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Now let me ask you. Have you even tried this product?


I sure have Trav.
thankyou2.gif


I have even analyzed the additive separately and the ATF it was in.

Performance wise, I noticed no difference in shifting or temperature differences in both GM and Nissan vehicles.

I hope all of you realize that I am playing the DEVIL'S advocate and am trying to get you to think critically about ANY additive and the claims they may make.
39.gif



We're adults here, and don't need someone to "get us to think critically", so you can step down from that pedestal. You don't have the market cornered on thinking critically.

The fact that many of us have used this or any product...you know, actual experience...on a variety of cars with noticeable improvements makes no difference because we don't have a mechanism to "prove it"?

Please.

No one knew why aspirin worked for decades but that didn't stop millions from using it for easing many a headache or mild pain.

While LG Red didn't make a discernable difference for you and some others, that's fine. It's in the range of experiences we all have with given products, whether leak sealants, injector cleaners, etc.

My objection was someone's never trying a product then saying it's useless.


Thank you eagle but I will stay on my pedestal and use some science here instead of emotion.
 
Quote:
It is not unrealistic

Of course it is. Tearing in to an automatics internals takes a lot of skill and can get costly. A pan drop on modern FWD may only expose the accumulator and pickup if your lucky.

After reading you q&a closely you forget one of the most important pieces of information and answered you own question at the same time IMO.
Quote:
•Softens and modifies harsh shifts making them quicker in duration

Shift duration is determined by time taken to go from one gear to another.


Soft and hard shifts are determined by the level of friction modifiers and types, (programmed) valve timing, and internal pressures or the force applied to actuators, and amount and condition of friction left on clutch surface.


Shift duration IS the amount of time it takes to shift from one gear to another. The rest of the statement is also true except you forgot to mention that it is the fluid pressure applied by the accumulator and contained by the clutch drum to apply the correct pressure to the plates and bands (usually low/rev band) that prevent slippage.

These components rely heavily on seals to function properly.
Internal seal leakage is one of the most common causes of auto transmission issues.
Unlike an external seal leak these seals are just not common lip seals but many different seal face designs, leakage/weepage will go unnoticed until there is a noticeable malfuntion.

Internal seal leakage/weepage will cause pressure loss and cause slippage, higher temps and a host of other ills.
IMO LG conditions these seals so they hold pressure and that will cure the issues associated with it.
Conditioning seal types like the large square cut accumulator seals is possible long term as they are not especially prone to tearing and cracking like the lip seals.

You said it yourself.
Quote:
•Protects new seals and permanently restores older seals to a "like-new" condition, without adverse side effects.

Yep the esters in LGR could do that.


Thats why i said.
Quote:
I admit that a vehicle that uses dex VI from day 1 and has had regular service will probably have a less dramatic effect.

IMO i guess that why your probably well maintained units didn't show any difference.
On the other hand if the product can maintain a high level of seal pliability over the life of the unit as they claim then it just may prevent these issues from ever occuring.

It would also explain why this is not an instant "fix", it has to take some time for the product to effect the seals.

I hope i explained this the way i am thinking it, translating thoughts to written English is a nightmare sometimes.
 
A couple of points.

CChase, planned obsolescence is very real. No tinfoil hat is needed as manufacturers use a variety of VERY sophisticated models to develop very good ideas as to exactly how long your car will last in normal use.

I actually appreciate Molakule playing DA and critiquing the product. That's fine. But the simple fact is that every car owner has a different usage scheme, and thus everyone's car is subjected to slightly or greatly differing variations from the norm. Thus an additive can help some much more than others.

Trav, great point about internal leakage. In a modern slushbox the pressure regulator will simply ramp up pump pressure to compensate, and this can really stress a lot of components as the computer tries to bring shift durations and severity under control.

Lubegard red is a great product. Like any additive, "your mileage may vary"!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
A couple of points.

CChase, planned obsolescence is very real. No tinfoil hat is needed as manufacturers use a variety of VERY sophisticated models to develop very good ideas as to exactly how long your car will last in normal use.
!


I'm not contesting planned obsolescence. I am contesting the claim that "once upon a time" transmission fluid would last forever and that somehow, it's worse than it was 40 years ago today. And that a miracle product in a bottle turns it back into this wonderful fluid of 40 years ago. If it were anywhere near that simple, they'd be using it in (for example) Dexron VI spec fluid in the first place.
 
Quote:
Of course it is. Tearing in to an automatics internals takes a lot of skill and can get costly. A pan drop on modern FWD may only expose the accumulator and pickup if your lucky.



I was referring to the manf. of Lubeguard. Using an outside firm to validate the results would be useful.

Agreed that internal seals are very important for without being able to hold pressure, the actuators, such as the pistons, would allow slipping. In fact, I stated that Lubeguard's esters would most likely help seal conditioning.
 
To be CEAR, I have not used a Lube Guard product, so I have no experience with them.
Like most folks on here, I have read the high praise that LG Red has gotten.
If it works for you, that is great.

My own opinion.....
I would not use it to extend the time I keep the fluid in service.
I would not use it in place of using a high quality fluid.
I don't think that either of these things are claimed by the product.

Also......as someone already mentioned, getting most folks to replace their transmission fluid as called for in the owner's manual (if it is called for), is a huge challenge.

I would ALSO recommend the installation of additional filtration in the transmission cooler line..
The easiest that I know of (and do) is a Magnefine filter.
It will catch a LOT more of the particles that ARE floating about in the fluid (mostly clutch material....normal wear).

I have used Auto-RX in my transmission fluid the last 1500 to 2000 miles before exchanging the fluid.
I HAVE noticed slightly improved shifting.

My current vehicle calls for a Dexron III fluid and I am using Redline D4.
Watching their D6, to see if it is recommended for Dexron III applications in the future.
 
Quote:
I would not use it to extend the time I keep the fluid in service.
I would not use it in place of using a high quality fluid.
I don't think that either of these things are claimed by the product.


+1 on that.
Quote:
I have used Auto-RX in my transmission fluid the last 1500 to 2000 miles before exchanging the fluid.
I HAVE noticed slightly improved shifting.


While i have no use at all for this product in engines it may have some real merit in automatic transmissions.
 
Quote:
My own opinion.....
I would not use it to extend the time I keep the fluid in service.
I would not use it in place of using a high quality fluid.
I don't think that either of these things are claimed by the product.



++1

Let's say I have had a rough shift or delayed shift with my 700R4. I put SmartBlend or LubeGuard Red in my ATF.

Let's further assume that at 768 miles those problems have pretty much dissappeared.

At this point, I would asuume that internal seals have either been conditioned, or valve varnish has been dissolved, or the passageways to the actuators have been cleaned, or clutch particles have been dislodged. IE, there is now stuff dispersed in the fluid that should be removed.

So going further with this thought, I would think the best practice would be to drain and refill all the fluid in the system.

I will ask the same question here that I asked in the Oil Additives section:

Quote:
What do you think we Formulators and additive chemists are purposely leaving out of these lubricants that requires you to add OTC or third-party additives?


BTW, I know what is involved with rebuilding transmissions since I have rebuilt two 700R4's (for a Suburban) and three PowerGlides modified for racing.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Quote:
What do you think we Formulators and additive chemists are purposely leaving out of these lubricants that requires you to add OTC or third-party additives?



I don't think "you'd" leave anything out.
smile.gif


Having said that I think the bean counters have a hand in it. Because of that I think all products are blended to a certain price point, and that price point is what determines what gets put in, and what gets reduced or left out. After all one of the goals of all corporations is to maximize their profits. As long as a little skimping here and there doesn't totally destroy a product then its all good for them. JMO
 
Quote:
So going further with this thought, I would think the best practice would be to drain and refill all the fluid in the system.


Lubeguard doesn't believe its necessary and claim leaving it in can provide benefits long term. Seeing as its been in transmissions that i put it in for over 100K (two OCI) without issue I'll take their word for it.
 
Originally Posted By: molakule
I will ask the same question here that I asked in the Oil Additives section:


Quote:
What do you think we Formulators and additive chemists are purposely leaving out of these lubricants that requires you to add OTC or third-party additives?

Originally Posted By: Molakule
The formulators have tried various mixes of additives to find the optimum mix that provides the best anti-wear and cleanliness at an affordable price.

Yes, we could make superduper formulated oils with exotic base oils and loads of additives, but the guy on the street could not afford nor would be willing to buy.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2313242

Nuff said i think.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
So going further with this thought, I would think the best practice would be to drain and refill all the fluid in the system.


Lubeguard doesn't believe its necessary and claim leaving it in can provide benefits long term. Seeing as its been in transmissions that i put it in for over 100K (two OCI) without issue I'll take their word for it.





Even IF Lubegard could refresh the additives what about the contaminants that are floating around and causing wear? From metals to tiny chunks of the discs. Percentage wise almost no one has any additional filtration for the transmission other than the felt filter, if the transmission even has that. (I have a Magnefine filter on both my vehicles). (And the Bobcat has two huge filters on its fluid).
 
The particles that will cause the most wear are made of steel and will mostly be caught by the pan magnet.
The aluminium and clutch plate material wont really cause the same amount of damage or cause the same amount of wear as steel.

I have no problem with add on filters as long as the bypass actually works at a low PSI. If it doesn't and the thing gets plugged with clutch material who knows what the damage will be.
I would definitely use a spin on with a pressure gauge but i'm still leery of these tiny inline jobs which rely on faith and guesswork.

I don't know, my mind is undecided on this.
 
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Will be changing out my ATF soon....but will be using Mobil Syn ATF....instead of Mercon V.

Since Mobil ATF is synthetic....do you guys think I need to use Lubegard Red....or should I pass ?


On your vehicle I'd say no. But on our 04 Escape I'll use it regardless of the fluid due to the CD4E that's been known to be short lived. I've put Lubeguard red in every 3rd plug pull. At 116k of hard use, trailers up to 5k/100+ mph runs/ and can't forget my wife's driving, it shifts better than we got at 32k and 2 years old. Absolutely no slow shifting, no pauses etc. Is Lubeguard Red why?.. who knows but at $12 it's alot cheaper than a new trans or new Escape. I will say though I probably should put some in the Focus it does have a slow shift when cold.. we'll see.
 
Whats funny is I'm sure there's a million things you can spend a dollar on for "free feel-good insurance."

Problem is by then, its a million dollars worth of anecdotal insurance that has no actual coverage.
 
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