Is EnviroSafe "R12A" R12 replacement legal in Washington State?

JR Manx said:
So if I leave the old condenser in there, it'll perform better than it would with R134?


Ok. And that's legal, right? ...ish? I do want to do a pressure test under normal operating pressure, since my test with about 80PSI of air and a spray-down with soapy water probably wasn't the most effective.

Now I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better just to buy some freaking R12 off eBay and charge the system with that. I mean, that's what it was originally designed for, and if some EPA bean counter wants to check my system, that's what it would've originally used anyway. But that's probably illegal.
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Yes, generally the HC blends will work better than a basic r-134a retrofit. Some vehicles take the retrofits better than others mind you, based upon frontal area, fan performance, heat loads, system sizing, etc. There are things to consider if your system slow leaks too.

Indeed you may be better off just getting some R-12. It has come down in price, and some shops still carry it, or at least will still install it, particularly if they tend to repair older vehicles. Anyone can take a test and be an EPA certified buyer of R-12. The question still is the prudence. IMO because it’s convenient to leak check with HC, then if it’s tight, leave it.
 
JHZR2 said:
What high side pressure do you think compressors discharge at?
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No, I meant my air compressor. Or did Chris mean test it with the AC compressor? Are you even supposed to do that without any oil in the system?
 
JHZR2 said:
Yes, generally the HC blends will work better than a basic r-134a retrofit. Some vehicles take the retrofits better than others mind you, based upon frontal area, fan performance, heat loads, system sizing, etc. There are things to consider if your system slow leaks too.

Indeed you may be better off just getting some R-12. It has come down in price, and some shops still carry it, or at least will still install it, particularly if they tend to repair older vehicles. Anyone can take a test and be an EPA certified buyer of R-12. The question still is the prudence. IMO because it’s convenient to leak check with HC, then if it’s tight, leave it.
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Ok. I'm thinking that using that Envirosafe stuff might be best, since I doubt I can find R12 anywhere in Washington state, unless I buy it from Ebay.
 
ripcord said:
Washington state recently banned the sale of AC refrigerant to anyone who doesn't have an AC certification. You'll need to make a road trip if you want to DIY. I doubt if you'll be able to mail order any unless it slips under the radar.
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I ordered R-134a via ebay and it arrived (Renton, Wa.).
 
I don’t know about the legalities but many companies sell R12A as a substitute for R-12. This one is from Canadian Tire, one of the largest retailers in Canada. The instructions say to totally evacuate any existing R12 out before introducing the R12A.

846497CF-CF95-4912-8A04-97D1895268B3.jpg
 
Snagglefoot said:
I don’t know about the legalities but many companies sell R12A as a substitute for R-12. This one is from Canadian Tire, one of the largest retailers in Canada. The instructions say to totally evacuate any existing R12 out before introducing the R12A.

View attachment 119138
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Of course it’s a best practice to recover good r-12. Plus since the HC is a blend, having yet another refrigerant in there at some fraction is tough to say definitely what will happen. Finally, you’re supposed to convert to 134a first, at least in the US. If Canadian rules are similar, then removal of the R-12 is a necessary step anyway.
 
JHZR2 said:
Of course it’s a best practice to recover good r-12. Plus since the HC is a blend, having yet another refrigerant in there at some fraction is tough to say definitely what will happen. Finally, you’re supposed to convert to 134a first, at least in the US. If Canadian rules are similar, then removal of the R-12 is a necessary step anyway.
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R-12a is a direct replacement for R-12. The only thing that needs to be done is doing such is to evacuate the R-12 then fill with R-12a.
 
72westy said:
R-12a is a direct replacement for R-12. The only thing that needs to be done is doing such is to evacuate the R-12 then fill with R-12a.
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While chemically, I’d agree, that is not the legal allowable approach. Hydrocarbon blends cannot be used for 12, but can be used in some cases for 134a according to the legal basis.

“In certain circumstances, the replacement of HFC-134a in a motor vehicle with hydrocarbon refrigerants might be permitted. At a minimum, in order to avoid violating the Clean Air Act, the motor vehicle A/C system must have either been originally designed for use with HFC-134a refrigerant, or must have been previously retrofitted from CFC-12 to HFC-134a refrigerant, AND no sham retrofit must have occurred to convert the system to the hydrocarbon refrigerant. In order to avoid violating other laws, the replacement of the refrigerant must not violate any state or local prohibition on the use of flammable refrigerants in motor vehicle A/C systems.”
 
JHZR2 said:
While chemically, I’d agree, that is not the legal allowable approach. Hydrocarbon blends cannot be used for 12, but can be used in some cases for 134a according to the legal basis.

“In certain circumstances, the replacement of HFC-134a in a motor vehicle with hydrocarbon refrigerants might be permitted. At a minimum, in order to avoid violating the Clean Air Act, the motor vehicle A/C system must have either been originally designed for use with HFC-134a refrigerant, or must have been previously retrofitted from CFC-12 to HFC-134a refrigerant, AND no sham retrofit must have occurred to convert the system to the hydrocarbon refrigerant. In order to avoid violating other laws, the replacement of the refrigerant must not violate any state or local prohibition on the use of flammable refrigerants in motor vehicle A/C systems.”
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All new cars have flammable refrigerants now! Even new food freezers sitting in your house. So what are you talking about?
 
Exhaustgases said:
All new cars have flammable refrigerants now! Even new food freezers sitting in your house. So what are you talking about?
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Why don’t you actually do some real research on the clean air act, the requirements for service and retrofit, or even better, info that’s part of the EPA 608/609 certs… then you can ask silly questions, or not.

This has nothing to do with 1234yf. Or your opinion on it. It also has nothing to do with working gas in appliances.

So what are you talking about?
 
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