Is 30% GP3 enough to get a Group1 to SM rating ?

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What is the minimum base oil, or base oil combination to get an oil Sm rating, or even CI4+ for diesel ? There are a few Semi Synths available, achieving SM rating. Some are reknowned for using GRoup 1 oils. Can it be reached by blending say 30% GP3 or synth oil ?

Thanks.
 
I asked somewhat of a similar question, on another thread. Mobil clean 5000 is SM/CF rated and is the only dino I could find in WM that had this dual rating. Even almost all of the syn/blends there didn't have the dual rating. I read either here or on other forums that it was a group 1, for its cleaning properties and therefore must have a good add pack to get CF rated. I think group 3 in a non "syn" oil may not get the profit if used in a "syn" oil, so not to much used if possible. I think SM dino will be group2/2+ just for cost/profit reasons. The group 3 oil will make more money used in a full syn product.
 
thanks jldcol. So if group 1 is still able to achieve SM rating, for 5000 changes, it still lives on, but many are still hesitant to use it. It must have its benefits ???
 
I think oil additives are very solvent in group 1, so the carrier for them is usually say 1-2 oz. of 50wt. oil in a quart. The additives are less solvent in group2/3, but still enough for good results. Group4-5 less able to carry conventional additives so need more expensive alternatives or use some group 3 probaly, closest to them, to carry additives. I also think base oil price difference from group 1 to group 2 is not very much, and group 2 will perfom better, neeeding less additives.
 
Group 1 has more dodgy looking molecules that can attach (and dissolve) other molecules.

It also has other dodgy looking molecules that fall apart, volatilise, polymerise and do all sorts of other unwanted thinning/thickening/sludging etc.

I don't think there's much Gr1 in many modern engine oils as they are somewhat unpredictable depending on source (Pennsylvania Crude being a case point).

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's an I think, rather than I know.
 
It's not just the group oil that takes the oil to the next level(SM/GF-4), it was also the lowering of Zinc/Phos and the addition of other adds.
 
It depends on the grade of oil.

GII base oils have better (lower) volatility than GI, and better cold pumpability properties. GII+ are better than GII in these respects too. And GIII are better yet again .

To blend a SM 5W oil (5W-20, 5w30), GI can't meet the NOACK of 15% and the cold spec's at the same time. GII isn't even good enough by itself to make the 15% spec., so it needs to be upblended with (50-60%) Group II+. You could possibly blend a little GI in a SM 5w30 (maybe 15% or so), but if you do, the motor oil will require even more GII+ or GIII correction fluid to make the spec.s, making the oil more expensive. So there is a cost incentive to use only GII or above in the 5W-20 and 5w30 SM formulations. If you buy a 5W-20 or 5w30 SM motor oil, you are pretty well guaranteed of getting only GII and above oils.

10W-30 SM oils are a different matter. SM 10W-30's should be able to be blended with majority GI and some GII/III correction fluid, but I would think more correction fluid is needed for SM compared to the previous SL spec. because of the increased thermal/oxidative requirements. SM also brought in a sulfur limit which may exclude some GI base oils.

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What about 10W-30? For GF-4, can it still be made with Group I base oils? What are Correction Fluids?

Most Group I base oils cannot be used for GF-4 10W-30 without some help. Higher VI base oils, called correction fluids, can provide this help. Depending on the properties of the Group I oil used, the final blend might require 10-50% of a correction fluid, such as 5R. If a Group III correction fluid is used, less will be required.

Another problem with Group I oils is that they have higher concentrations of impurities, such as aromatic compounds, and sulfur and nitrogen compounds. These impurities accelerate oxidative degradation. So, in addition to needing help with viscometrics and volatility, Group I oils need help to meeting the requirements of oxidation tests, like the Sequence IIIG engine test. Therefore finished lubricants formulated with Group I base oils formulations require boosted additive packages to achieve similar performance to engine oils blended with Group II.

While it is possible to blend GF-4 10W-30 using mostly Group I base stock meeting spec will require more expensive correction fluids and more expensive additive packages.


Here in N.A. (Canada, US) because the base oil supply for passenger cars and vehicles is almost all GII, SM 10W-30's should be virtually all GII based because the supply availability for GI blending is going to be limited. Outside N.A. GII availability is limited compared to GI, so the chances of running into a GI majority based SM 10W-30 is a lot higher.

There were quite a few 10W-30 SL (previous spec. which has the same 15% NOACK as SM) blended with majority GI and some GII/III correction fluid even here in N.A. If I walked into some store and they had some motor oil on sale -- say, Bob's Deluxe Motor Oil
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…SL rated -- 5w30 and 10W-30. Unless I knew the 10W-30 was GII based, I would only buy the 5w30. If unsure about a SL or SM rated 10W-30, the "trick" is to buy the 5w30. The 5w30 guarantees you a large majority GII+ based motor oil if not all GII+ since there is no way to use any significant amount of GI and meet the spec's.

The situation for the SM heavier grades like 10W-40, 15w40, 20W-50 would be similar. Here in N.A. they are almost all GII. Outside N.A. they are likely mostly GI based (with some correction fluid).
 
The above post seems a fair accurate analysis of question.5w oils are probably better, more group2+ in the the mix than 10w, particulary in SM oil. SL you going to have more chance of older tech group1 stock. I believe SM rated dino from US sources is likely group2/2+ base. You can make SM oil from group 1 stuff, but why? group 2 little more cost. You will need a lot of pour point depressants to get cold flow rating and a lot of VII's to get acceptable hot performace. After these wear out you have iffy base oil to protect things. Cold temps cause waxes to form up in oils and group 1 allready has these "wax seeds" if you will in it, so will thicken up alot fairly quickly.
 
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