Interesting Auto News Article on Widespread Engine Failures

[ripcord]

Not true but continue to believe whatever fits your preconceived notion of how things work

Please elaborate.

 

[crashz]

"The automotive industry’s decades-long push for cleaner, more fuel-efficient engines has created an unintended consequence: Today’s advanced motors are far less tolerant of manufacturing imperfections that older engines could survive"

What frustrates me to no end is that our policy makers who want to engineer from a Congressional office have no concept of the bird's eye view here: they push for high MPG today with no thought of longevity. Their virtue signaling necessitates that it's better to get 42 mpg TODAY and simply replace your unreliable vehicle every four years.

Zero thought is given to the "carbon footprint" of tooling up to build 3x as many vehicles, much less the carbon footprint of replacing engines ad nauseum.

Those replacement engines require raw materials. They require factories to build them. Those factories must have workers drive to them. Then the replacement engines must be transported throughout the country. At the dealerships more people must drive there to install them, using time, materials and electricity that would otherwise be dedicated to other "normal, necessary" work, and dealerships may need to pull OT if the backlog is too great.

Now your new, virtue-signaling engine is installed. Cool!! The old engine has created unnecessary waste oil and coolant which must be disposed of. That must be transported to a disposal facility.

The new engine requires fresh oil and coolant, which again was made in a factory that had to have workers drive to it, and then be transported to dealers by last-mile delivery. Note most of these are petroleum products kinda like gas -- ya know, that thing we're working so hard to preserve with our virtue signaling??

Technically each new engine requires test driving -- in the case of first hand accounts of the Tundra 3.4, quite likely MULTIPLE test drives. In case no one noticed, test drives technically use gasoline for no other purpose than to drive around.

Now you've got an engine core. Please don't delude yourself into thinking it's mostly recycled. A lot of it will simply wind up in a landfill. But even then it must be transported to a landfill.

Some cores will be transported to an inspection facility where workers must drive to inspect said engines. Presumably said inspection facilities have lighting and computers for data recording, so they use electricity.

Now sure, some metal portions of cores are recycled. So, they must be transported to a facility that can melt them down, typically using HUGE amounts of electricity or gas to do so. Here again, workers must drive to said facilities -- even if we ship it offshore, using energy to power the slow boats.

But none of these thoughts fit the narrative, so we prefer to just focus on that which is 2" in front of our nose -- my vehicle is EPA rated for XX MPG and that's ALL that matters! Yay happy happy joy joy!!

We should implement CAFL: Corporate Average Fleet Life, weighted in conjunction with CAFE

I agree with lifecycle costs to the consumer and planet. But business and the economy relies on consumers. Consumers & businesses buying, using and replacing their items. The end of life part has no clean place in our economy. It never really has.

 

[ripcord]

I agree with lifecycle costs to the consumer and planet. But business and the economy relies on consumers. Consumers & businesses buying, using and replacing their items. The end of life part has no clean place in our economy. It never really has.

We do have a consumer driven economy, but planned obsolescence is a net negative on the economy. Artificially creating and sustaining a market through scheduled destruction displaces other economic activity. In reality, what appears to be creation is merely maintenance and added overhead. In economic terms this is sometimes referred to as the broken window fallacy.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

We do have a consumer driven economy, but planned obsolescence is a net negative on the economy. Artificially creating and sustaining a market through scheduled destruction displaces other economic activity. In reality, what appears to be creation is merely maintenance and added overhead. In economic terms this is sometimes referred to as the broken window fallacy.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp

Yet the fleets built today are exponentially more reliable than the fleets built over the last 100 yrs.

 

[ripcord]

Yet the fleets built today are exponentially more reliable than the fleets built over the last 100 yrs.

I think that D60's point was not that they are unreliable, per se, but that many vehicles are less reliable than they could and should be which is undoubtedly true.

 

[Pablo]

I think that D60's point was not that they are unreliable, per se, but that many vehicles are less reliable than they could and should be which is undoubtedly true.

The complexity may be reaching a max. But I doubt it.

 

[Arc]

Auto News is a industry publication, so it sounds a lot like preaching to the choir - blame on someone else. Higher engine pressures and temperatures are known - so it simply means you need to design to those values.

Back in the day when you decided to make 600HP in your small block chevy and then blew the 2 bolt mains out the bottom, no one was confused or surprised.

It's easier to change the oil when you have a big hole in the oil pan from the rod cap. I've sent many engines to the scrap yard in my younger days but it was fun when you hit the pedal and heard the engine scream.

 

[Arc]

We do have a consumer driven economy, but planned obsolescence is a net negative on the economy. Artificially creating and sustaining a market through scheduled destruction displaces other economic activity. In reality, what appears to be creation is merely maintenance and added overhead. In economic terms this is sometimes referred to as the broken window fallacy.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp

Speaking of windows I heard they are adding lamination inbetween the glass layers on front side windows making it hard to get people out in a wreck. You have to wonder about the people making decisions today.

 

[xspeedy]

Yup! The latest version of the BMW 3l TDGI engine, B58TU3, uses 0w12 oil! And I thought using a 0w20 in the B58 was bad!

But what do BMW spec for oil in other markets like Europe, Australia, or Asia? This super thin oil does seem like it is strictly around efficiency/emissions.

 

[Arc]

Are engines actually more unreliable or is it we just see more complaints because people can no longer fix basic issues? I've had engines in the past that broke down all the time but I still loved them. In the past it was nothing to change a timing chain or even lifters etc and you were back driving the next day. Today a simple problem calls for an unavailable part and a computer that gives you permission to change the part. When that happens the engine is basically a brick and not worth fixing and therefore people hate it.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Are engines actually more unreliable or is it we just see more complaints because people can no longer fix basic issues? I've had engines in the past that broke down all the time but I still loved them. In the past it was nothing to change a timing chain or even lifters etc and you were back driving the next day. Today a simple problem calls for an unavailable part and a computer that gives you permission to change the part. When that happens the engine is basically a brick and not worth fixing and therefore people hate it.

Spun bearings or blown head gaskets.

Neither are a byproduct of cafe.

 

[ripcord]

Speaking of windows I heard they are adding lamination inbetween the glass layers on front side windows making it hard to get people out in a wreck. You have to wonder about the people making decisions today.

That reminds me of this story I just saw.

https://abc7.com/post/bald-eagle-drops-cat-drivers-windshield-north-carolina-highway/18184472/

 

[Arc]

That reminds me of this story I just saw.

https://abc7.com/post/bald-eagle-drops-cat-drivers-windshield-north-carolina-highway/18184472/

Talk about a bad day. I've heard the old saying "raining cats and dogs " but I didn't think it really happened. Did you hear the story about a bird dropping a snake on a woman using her riding mower? She got bit by the snake and attacked by the bird

 

[WeyounDS9]

We do have a consumer driven economy, but planned obsolescence is a net negative on the economy. Artificially creating and sustaining a market through scheduled destruction displaces other economic activity. In reality, what appears to be creation is merely maintenance and added overhead. In economic terms this is sometimes referred to as the broken window fallacy.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp

Agreed I was just going to quote the Broken Window fallacy myself.
Breaking stuff, especially expensive stuff, is NOT good for "the economy" just because it pays others to be busy.
This just increases the overhead cost to living, for everyone.

 

[Arc]

Spun bearings or blown head gaskets.

Neither are a byproduct of cafe.

In my area all the machine shops are gone making some repairs impossible. No leveling a head or grinding a crankshaft etc. I'm not liking the direction everything is going now. Maybe the old timers were right and each generation is making things worse for everybody.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I think that D60's point was not that they are unreliable, per se, but that many vehicles are less reliable than they could and should be which is undoubtedly true.

But they're still extremely reliable compared to vehicles of the past.
Perhaps his real issue is the cost to repair when something does go wrong. It seems some consumers would rather die a death of a thousand cuts. I can understand that. Car repair is more expensive today and imported parts are significantly more expensive.

 

[nascarnation]

I'll throw out a couple other possibilities too.

Covid caused a lot of havoc with people's availability. People who oversee and actually do the skilled work.

The "we're going to move to 100 percent evs" transitory era had companies retiring and surplusing a LOT of folks with experience and knowledge in designing and manufacturing engines and transmissions.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I'll throw out a couple other possibilities too.

Covid caused a lot of havoc with people's availability. People who oversee and actually do the skilled work.

The "we're going to move to 100 percent evs" transitory era had companies retiring and surplusing a LOT of folks with experience and knowledge in designing and manufacturing engines and transmissions.

There were plenty of problems pre 2020.

Toyota 3.4 was launched in 2017. Problems are more visible now because its in a Tundra. LS owners likely don't take to automotive forums as much.

The Ford Ecoboost 4 cylinder slotted deck was a problem until it was quietly fixed mid 2019. Cross drilling fixed it. Cross drilling is more money.

I can think of others.

 

[KGMtech]

Smaller engines, more output per litre, higher operating temps from turbos, smaller bearing surfaces to reduce friction, and the greatest issue IMHO is longer OCI. In Toyota's case, if they had a mechanical lock for the main bearings, we'd all think they were flawless.

 

[K-Man]

Agreed I was just going to quite the Broken Window fallacy myself.
Breaking stuff, especially expensive stuff, is NOT good for "the economy" juts because it pays other to be busy.
This just increases the overhead cost to living for everyone.

Ditto for rebuilding after a major calamity such as a tornado, hurricane, or California–type fire. That's not "good for the economy" either.

Some people years back were saying that we need to learn to subtract from GDP, citing this and other things like spending on health problems such as cancer caused by manmade pollution and chemicals in the environment. The medical profession might do well from treating the latter, but no one else does; for everyone else it's actually a cost. GDP looks at spending and not the costs that go with certain types of spending, meaning after something really bad happens to someone or his/her property.

We've had a lot of recent discussion about various engines and transmissions that are prone to catastrophic failures even with careful maintenance and driving. There's no excuse for such poor designs, unless the manufacturer believes people will just buy a replacement vehicle from it, but I for one would not buy again from that automaker after I had such an experience.