Interesting article on the future of diesel cars

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Originally Posted By: addyguy
According to Ford, diesel cars are NOT the way of the future:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/templates/blog?hub=WBdriving

Not suprised by this at all - with diesel now equal to, or more expensive than gas, and the issue with cleaning up the engines, why manufacturers would spend money and time on this is beyond me.


$1k for cleaning up the emissions PER engine.. And that number is for Europe.

Just think how much it will cost for good old EPA/CARB America...

Yep, I think this correct for passenger and light trucks.

Too bad.

bill
 
Diesel has lots of life left, but it'll never catch on in the US with cars. Pretty much all medium and heavy duty trucks, heavy off road, farm, etc., euipment is diesel, and trains are diesel-electric. A fair number of light trucks are diesel, and they seem better suited for heavy loads than gas engines. Gas engines won't be viable replacements for any of that type of usage unless one wants to live with 'throw away engines'.

Long term diesel has the ability to 'get off the pipe' by utilizing bio products. Ethanol seems worse than gas as a potential replacement for diesel.
 
I'd MUCH rather have an expensive and/or internally dirty engine than burn ethanol.
 
That from a company that is going to lose how many billion this year? We will see what happens. I too believe biodiesel has much more of a future than corn ethanol.
 
It means what it's always meant: Don't put a diesel in a small cheap car. But it works in a bigger, better built car.
 
Worldwide the price of diesel is closer to gasoline than it is in the US, right? That would imply a correctable inefficiency in the market here. Maybe in the not too distant future somebody in the US will build a new refinery, using it to get the now-more-profitable 50/50 diesel/gasoline ratio that most non-US refineries are designed for.

Haven't actually read the article yet, just a thought.
 
Okay, after reading the article, it seems to confirm that diesel/gas prices in Europe are about par with one another. The market itself will adjust those prices with demand, so if diesels ever became less popular, the price of diesel fuel would go down, making diesels more attractive again. So I don't see them going away.

If anything, the European governments' incentives for diesels have pushed demand for diesel fuel up, and consequently interfered with the market and raised the fuel's price. Maybe they should get tweak their incentives, or get rid of them.

The emissions equipment issue is very real, however. There will have to be a balance between emissions cleanliness and cost of production. Cost/benefit analyses should be a critical part of regulation.

If nothing else, diesels are great to drive! That is one reason they will continue to be popular. Experience the power delivery of a good diesel engine in a small car and the the whole paradigm shifts.
 
Diesels have represented approximately 50% of the vehicles sold in Europe for many years. Ford's got it wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

A small diesel is great for small cars. Gobs of torque and very high mileage.

The US just has an aversion to diesels for some reason. GM's late '70s disaster with them didn't help any.

The new ones run cleaner than gasoline engines and are very quiet. If diesel proponents like VW had US market savvy, they would offer a fuel discount incentive to further spur vehicle demand against the present fuel price gap. The government has helped with the tax credit on some clean diesels.
 
Quote:
Maybe in the not too distant future somebody in the US will build a new refinery


crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: glennc
Bill - you ran Amsoil in your car. Anything is possible.


After the [censored] I've gotten for it, I am sorry I did.
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Diesels have represented approximately 50% of the vehicles sold in Europe for many years. Ford's got it wrong (wouldn't be the first time).
...

But that's in large part because European governments tweaked their tax codes to make the final price of diesel lower than that of gasoline. Take away the artificial supports and make drivers pay the true price for the fuel, and much of the diesel advantage vanishes.
 
ford propaganda i am afraid. honda's new i-dtec diesel engine is now available in europe and already meets euro 5 emission standards (the 2011 date they make mention of) and is 50 states compliant in the U.S. without any changes. this engine is expected to get mid 40's combined mpg (> 50mpg on the highway) when released in the U.S. as the acura tsx (diesel option).
 
Originally Posted By: mikeinaustin
ford propaganda i am afraid. honda's new i-dtec diesel engine is now available in europe and already meets euro 5 emission standards (the 2011 date they make mention of) and is 50 states compliant in the U.S. without any changes. this engine is expected to get mid 40's combined mpg (> 50mpg on the highway) when released in the U.S. as the acura tsx (diesel option).


Yes ...and in US trim it will surely cost just enough to make it economically non-viable over a gas engined Acura. It's the same story every time. They just neutralize the market to make them too challenging to work here. If they could manage it practically ..it would be industry wide ..but you can't do it practically. GM even was given time to develop it's version of a small block throw away V8 diesel ..just for us ..meanwhile ...millions of unit operate world wide filling the same capacity as the slot that it will fill NOW.

It's just a few pen strokes of difference. You can come up with all kinds of reasons. We can't produce the fuel ..blah-blah ..but it's mostly allowing economic cushions to be fabricated ..or rather its fabricated to provide economic cushions.
 
Yep, the history of diesel in the US seems to have been almost engineered to receive this outcome.

I've never seen a petrol powered motorhome down here, certainly none with 454 or 460 ci.

SUV purchasers look for diesel wherever possible.

The smaller 4 cyls are selling hotly, as they do their best in typical Oz utilisation, on the highway.
 
What's the payback, Shannow? That is, how much is the difference between gas and petrol powerplants in the same chassis ..or like chassis. In terms of purchase price, that is?
 
Here you have to drive 12,000 miles or more a year before a diesel is more economic to own. For smaller cars the number is bigger.

Looks like the (near) future for small and medium sized cars is gasoline engines like the MB dies otto engine. VW/Audi and GM is also working with equal technology. Those engines will be much cheaper to produce than TDI engines, will have equal power to small TDI engines and have lower emissions and consumption.
 
Gary,
Going from petrol (7km/l) to diesel (10-11km/l) is a pretty common spread in the medium sized SUVs. Purchase cost up 5-10%, fuel cost up 10-15%.

50% more range out of a tank can be significant down here, as although we share a similar area to you guys, we've got less than 10% of the population density.

bar1 is correct, in that there's some sums to be done on individual cases.

I think that the Oz model is partially skewed by the older, lower stressed diesels lasting a million km between rebuilds, while the newer have power densities of petrol engines, and their longevity is as yet untold.
 
Another related issue is that any powertrain options in the US tend to move vehicle cost from depressing to stupid, as people in the US demand foo foo options. I'd much prefer a stripped down vehicle as a baseline with the ability to start with oprions of my choosing, but one typically can't do that in the US. Instead we have an industry that seems to depend upon options for lots of profits, look at the junk that pickups and SUVs have been loaded down with, and apparently very successful marketing which has lots of friends and coworkers telling me that 'options make the vehicle'. No Virginia, options just vehicles more expensive, which might be good for a few months of status but after that your arm gets tired from flushing so much money down the toilet as the thing depreciates.

I recently listened to someone telling me that just before gas prices really took off they had managed to get their dream vehicle, a full size GM SUV with enough options to push it over $60k, a vehicle that is kind of worthless now as it'a obviously large, has a gas engine, and gets pretty bad mileage. I'll bet it even has fancy wheels and low profile summer performance tires, like putting lipstick on a pig, really expensive lipstick. The powertrain makes the vehicle as it basically defines capability and durability, and everything else is window dressing. For mileage please give me a stripped down small sedean with a diesel and a manual tranny, but I know I'll never get such a vehicle in the US.
 
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