Intake Manifold Cleanliness

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
14,505
Location
Top of Virginia
After reading about various EGR-related issues with some of the Honda V-6s as they age, I took the top cover off the manifold of our 2005 MDX (128k miles). It was quite dirty inside, with lots of small carbon deposits. These appear to be the same as what's coming up out of the EGR pipe. The EGR pipe itself is free and clear, though it is lined with carbon -- like the chimney of an oft-used fireplace. The bits of carbon laying in the intake manifold are odd to me, though.

The flap running lengthwise across the middle of the intake manifold opens at about 3,600 rpm, and equalizes both halves of the manifold. It doesn't seem to me that it would be all that effective at creating more power, but it must work. It's hard to hear this transition in the MDX because of its quiet intake ducting, but you can certainly hear it in the Ridgeline -- the intake noise turns deeper and louder.

It appears to be very varnished, and I imagine that's coming from the PCV line. This engine has ALWAYS discolored fresh oil very quickly -- the oil is significantly darkened after only 1,000 miles or so. The PCV gasses enter the intake manifold via the silicone hose in the lower left of the photo and travel around the perimeter of the upper intake manifold through a channel that is sealed by the top cover with a thin paper gasket. There is a small hole in the top of each intake runner through which the PCV gasses are delivered.

IMG_20150926_070554736.jpg


IMG_20150926_070602008.jpg


The MDX's intake manifold is either dirtier than it should be, or the Ridgeline's intake manifold is cleaner than it should be. It has 99k miles. The MDX's intake manifold is a monobloc cast aluminum job while the Ridgeline uses a newer design split-case magnesium casting. It uses the same PCV design, with gasses traveling around the perimeter of the upper intake manifold; the Ridgeline's manifold cover uses a nicer pliable thick rubber seal instead of the MDX's flat gasket. But it's so clean in this one -- and indeed, the 8k mile oil that I drained out of it when I bought it looked as discolored (or even less so) as the 3k mile oil that's in our MDX right now. The current oil in the Ridgeline has about 2k miles on it, and it's still a golden tan color.

IMG_20150926_070641752.jpg


IMG_20150926_070647520.jpg


What do you think would cause these engines to run so differently, in terms of what's being deposited into the intake manifold? I have no issues with how the MDX's engine is running -- tailpipe emissions seem to be clean with no particulates, it returns fuel economy commensurate with the EPA estimates, etc. But I'd still like to clean it up some if I can. Since it was new, it's seen regular oil changes at
Strange. Any ideas?
 
It is on this manifold design. The center of the manifold area is open to each manifold half. When the center butterfly valve opens, each half of the manifold is exposed to the other, which apparently creates a certain resonance that increases power. On the MDX, that long butterfly valve is mounted to the manifold itself, and stays in the manifold when the cover is removed. On the Ridgeline, that long butterfly valve is actually part of the top cover, and comes out when the cover comes off.

It's clearer on the MDX pictures (the dirty ones!). The square ports between the three intake runners on the back half are open to the plenum itself. You can see the "humps" of these square ports, and how they connect to the main plenum. The Ridgeline's design is the same, though it's not quite as apparent in these photos.
 
If only you could swap the pictures and then the answer would be obvious, wouldn't it? I mean every single BITOG participant would have immediately blamed the Jiffy Lube 8K oil changes. Yes, it is rather a sad commentary on how this forum jumps to conclusion but you unfortunately have thrown them in a loop.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If only you could swap the pictures and then the answer would be obvious, wouldn't it? I mean every single BITOG participant would have immediately blamed the Jiffy Lube 8K oil changes. Yes, it is rather a sad commentary on how this forum jumps to conclusion but you unfortunately have thrown them in a loop.
"Every single"?
 
Why not? Would there had been even a single person who would have said "wait a minute; may be there are some fundamental differences in the engine operating environment which we have not yet found and it has nothing to do with OCI or the type of the oil"? would you be able to name that person?
 
The big difference appears to be the size of the runners. The smaller runner openings in the cleaner manifold are going to cause higher velocity than the larger square openings in the dirty manifold. The slower moving air is going to be more prone for suspended droplets to fall out and lay on the metal where they eventually bake and form the visible varnish you see.
 
After looking at everything some more, I think one of the major factors may be the PCV system itself. On the MDX, the PCV valve is on the left side of the engine (as it sits in the vehicle), directly next to the silicone PCV hose that connects to the manifold. There may not be a lot of opportunity for moisture or oil droplets to fall out of suspension there. On the Ridgeline, the PCV valve is on the opposite side of the cylinder head cover, and PCV gasses must, presumably, travel the entire length of the cylinder head cover before entering the hose to the manifold. The PCV "channel" in the upper intake manifold is significantly cleaner in the Ridgeline's manifold vs. the MDX's manifold. Maybe the Ridgeline's engine has a more robust oil separator in the cylinder head cover.

The EGR area is also significantly cleaner in the Ridgeline's manifold vs. the MDX's manifold. And I know that area doesn't see much flow -- just whatever gets pulled through that EGR pipe. The only significant design difference is the MDX's engine pulls EGR directly from the #6 exhaust port area on the right side of the front cylinder bank, whereas the Ridgeline's engine has an EGR tube that leads down to the front exhaust pipe after the catalytic converter. So the Ridgeline's engine is receiving presumably "cleaner" EGR gasses vs. what the MDX's engine gets.

Overkill, I apologize for the pictures, but I don't think there's a difference in the size of the runners. I didn't get as low of a camera angle on the Ridgeline's intake manifold, but I think the runners are of similar size. To agree with you, though, I don't think this inner manifold area sees significant airflow anyway...I think it acts as much of a resonance chamber as anything else.

I don't think anything upstream of what we see here would introduce oily gasses into the intake manifold. There are no fuel injectors at the throttle body. There's a crankcase breather in the intake tube downstream of the air filter, but that should be pulling air OUT rather than dumping air IN to the stream.

Earlier engines with the cast aluminum intake manifold, the same-side PCV system, and the pre-cat EGR tend to look like our MDX's...after looking at a bunch of pictures of earlier Pilot and Odyssey engines this morning on the web. Some of those owners build PCV catch can systems to try to prevent that oily residue in the manifold. I'm thinking that maybe Honda has come up with a bit of a "built in" oil separator system in the later engine design, with the PCV valve across the cylinder head cover from the hose connection.
 
Yes, correct. They really are similar in size. Camera angle just doesn't show it. The MDX manifold's openings there have a completely enclosed cast "square" that forms the hole. The Ridgeline's manifold lacks this lower part of the "square", which makes it look different. If you imagine the MDX's manifold without the lower part of the "square", then they look similar.

Oh -- I just thought of one additional difference. The MDX's manifold keeps the butterfly valve closed under about 3,600 rpm. So there is 0 velocity through that area when the valve is closed. The Ridgeline's manifold keeps the butterfly valve open about 25%, even when off. There is, in theory, some velocity through there even below 3,600 rpm. Interestingly, though, even the EGR area is a lot cleaner on the Ridgeline, and that area does not open to the inner intake resonance chamber.

If you look up into the main plenum area, it's as wet in the MDX's manifold as the inner chamber is. There's some source of crankcase gasses in that design that the Ridgeline doesn't seem to have. The Ridgeline's manifold is completely BONE DRY inside.
 
To me, the dirty one looks ok and the clean one looks exceptionally clean - like crankcase gases are not going through it.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
It is on this manifold design. The center of the manifold area is open to each manifold half. When the center butterfly valve opens, each half of the manifold is exposed to the other, which apparently creates a certain resonance that increases power. On the MDX, that long butterfly valve is mounted to the manifold itself, and stays in the manifold when the cover is removed. On the Ridgeline, that long butterfly valve is actually part of the top cover, and comes out when the cover comes off.


Oh...thanks for the explanation, sorry for that.
 
Does the MDX consume a measurable amount of oil between changes?
It could just have more blowby.

Quote:
The flap running lengthwise across the middle of the intake manifold opens at about 3,600 rpm, and equalizes both halves of the manifold. It doesn't seem to me that it would be all that effective at creating more power, but it must work.


Keep in mind each cylinder intakes air in pulses.
So when the flap is open an individual port can draw from other areas that are currently not being used, like a reservoir.
At 3600+rpm wave effects (tuned port) are significant.
So the "blind alleys" leading to closed valves in other runners have some complex interaction
 
I think CBR.worm is right and one has little to no pcv gases at all.

We need to see if there is an elaborate oil separator in the valve cover....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top