indirect hot water heater with mod/con boiler

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JHZR2

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Hello,

We are considering updating our 25+ year old boiler and our 13 year old hot water heater to enhance efficency.

Im going between the option of a modulating/condensing boiler which has an aluminum heat exchanger (gas fired), and a cast-iron "high efficiency" unit that is AFUE of 83-85%.

Obviously the first is subject to all sorts of tax breaks and rebates, and supposedly the aluminum heat exchangers are good these days.

But my question is hopefully simple and is this: my understanding is that the modulating condensing boilers operate their water temperatures at a much lower temperature than traditional units. This is especially so with an outdoor reset and mild conditions. THe problem is that I'd want to tie it in with an indirect hot water system.

Will I have issues with low temperatures on the boiler and getting sufficient hot water because of the "driving force" for the energy coming from the boiler water? Especially in the milder months?

Thanks!
 
i would install a Budurs sorry about the spelling it comes set up for the piping and the internal relays that change the water temp between domestic hot water and heating water.

best of all on natural gas its 95% energy efficient

the next best part is you can get up to 30% back as a tax credit/rebate

if you go with the lower efficiency model, go with a Weil-Mclain CGA boiler you can get those up to 84%, and these are very quiet boilers compaired tothe draft inducted models.

you get the energy efficiency of a more complicated boiler, with the CGA, and less repairs in the long term.

you can always Pm me if you have any questions when it gets to obtaining bids.

sorry about the spelling or other errors i broke my glasses and am having a heck of a time seeing tonight!
 
There is nothing wrong with that Dunkirk boiler, in boilers we sure like simple, the manufacturers took a long time to work out the kinks in high efficiency boilers compared to their forced air counter parts.
 
Originally Posted By: duaneb9729
i would install a Budurs sorry about the spelling it comes set up for the piping and the internal relays that change the water temp between domestic hot water and heating water.

best of all on natural gas its 95% energy efficient

the next best part is you can get up to 30% back as a tax credit/rebate

if you go with the lower efficiency model, go with a Weil-Mclain CGA boiler you can get those up to 84%, and these are very quiet boilers compaired tothe draft inducted models.

you get the energy efficiency of a more complicated boiler, with the CGA, and less repairs in the long term.

you can always Pm me if you have any questions when it gets to obtaining bids.

sorry about the spelling or other errors i broke my glasses and am having a heck of a time seeing tonight!


I was looking at the weil-mclain CGA boiler, as it seems like the best fit, except that it does not qualify for any of the energy star/high efficiency appliance rebates.

You recommended the Buderus boiler, but any pros/cons of the Weil-Mclain ultra? Most places around us deal with their stuff. Im not stuck on any one company (though we do currently have a W-M boiler), just curious.

Thanks very much!
 
Our distributor recommended against installing the Ultra, they handle both brands Weil-Mclain and Buderus. The fellow i talk to about this stuff is the go to guy for service problems so i tend to put a lot of faith in him.

In the past Weil-Mclains high efficiency boilers have been trouble, the early ones didnt hand the condensate issue well, and the newer models would burn out this odd looking burner cone.

I would be happy to quiz the fellow to see what the deal is with this newer model.

I like how the Weil-Mclain boiler handles removing air from the system, its built into the boiler so you dont have to pipe anything extra in to the main lines.

Would you be installing this yourself?
 
Interesting, thanks.

Depending upon installation cost, I would consider doing it myself. I am fairly handy.

Do you have a recommendation on an indirect hot water tank? Are the W-M gold series good, or is there another?

THanks again!
 
Interesting sites:
www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/
www.naseo.org/members/states.htm - State & Government Energy Offices with information on rebate and incentive programs.
https://thehomedweller.com/best-indirect-water-heaters/
www.acee.org/ - General and Technical information on energy efficiency

Try this simple calculation provided by the U.S. Dept. of Energy. Divide the total amount of your gas/electric utility bill by seven (7) the next time you pay it. (Gas utility for gas water heater; electric utility for electric water heater.) The end result will be close to the amount you spend on heating your water. Water heating is the second highest energy use after home heating. Under normal conditions, water heating accounts for up to 20 - 25% of your utility bill.

So why do we always wait until the old one fails before we wisely shop for a replacement? How many of us have had water heater failure during the most inappropriate times. You know - Holidays, family visits, weddings, proms, etc., and end up with an emergency purchase. The last thing on our mind is energy-efficiency. We just want hot water, and we want it NOW! Instead of becoming well-informed consumers we turn into emergency impulse buyers. We rely upon our plumber, contractor, local merchants, friends, and relatives for either the best price or brand. (As a rule of thumb, the least expensive water heater is the most expensive to operate.) With this in mind, lets examine the various considerations we all should take before purchasing our next water heater.

Types of Water Heaters:

Storage type:

The most popular for residential water heating. They operate by releasing hot water from the top of the tank when a hot water tap is on. Cold water is introduced to the bottom of the tank as hot water is drawn. These tanks operate on electric, gas, propane, and oil. Because the water is constantly heated with this system, energy can be wasted even when not being used. This is referred to as "standby heat loss". Consider tanks with at least 1.5 inches (3.8 centimeters) of foam insulation and energy efficiency rating shown on the EnergyGuide labels. Insulation is instrumental in the prevention of standby heat loss.

Demand type:

Also commonly known as "Instantaneous" water heating. This system significantly reduces standby heat loss and reduces energy consumption by 20-30%. With these systems you never run out of hot water. Water travels through a piping system within the unit, and either a gas burner or electric element heats the water on demand. The biggest drawback to this system is limited flow rate. Demand heaters provide hot water at a rate of 2 to 4 gallons per minute. More than adequate if operating hot water at one location at a time. However inadequate if two or more are operating at the same time (i.e. shower and clothes washer). For additional costs, demand heaters can be installed in parallel sequence allowing or meeting hot water demands for multiple faucets operating at the same time. Gas fired demand heaters tend to have higher flow rates than electric. You should note that some gas demand heaters operate with a constant pilot light, however, the amount of energy consumed by a pilot light is quite small.

Heat Pump type:

Electric systems that move heat from one place to another instead of generating heat directly in one spot. They operate in the same manner as refrigerators only in reverse. They can act alone with built-in storage tanks or as add-ons to existing water heaters. They have a high initial cost and require installation in locations the maintain a 40 degree or higher temperature yearlong. To operate most efficiently, they should be placed in areas having excess heat, such as a furnace room. They will not functions properly in a cold space.

Tankless Coil & Indirect types: (Operate off your home heating system.)

Tankless Coil - No separate storage tank is needed in the tankless coil water heater system. Water is heated directly inside the boiler in a hydronic (i.e. hot water) heating system unit. Water flows through a heat exchanger in the boiler whenever a hot water tap is turned on. During the heating season, the tankless coil works well because the heating system is used regularly. The system is less efficient during warmer clients when the boiler is used less frequently.

Indirect - Requires a separate storage tank. Uses the same method of heating water through a heat exchanger as the tankless coil system. However, this heated water then flows to an insulated storage tank (most carry a lifetime warranty.). This system is more efficient than the tankless coil because the boiler does not need to operate frequently. When an indirect water heater is used with a highly efficient boiler they combine for one of the least expensive methods of water heating.

Solar type:

Strongly dependent on the sun, solar water heaters if properly designed, installed and maintained can satisfy half to nearly all of a home's hot water demand. System designs are either classified as passive, active or direct. The initial costs are high but overall operating costs are significantly lower.

Passive systems operate without pumps and controls and can be more reliable, durable, less maintenance, longer lasting, and less expensive to operate than active systems. Active solar water heaters require pumps and controls to move heat-transfer fluids from collectors to storage tanks. Both systems often require conventional water heaters as back-ups.

A direct solar water heating system circulates water through collectors and is not appropriate or recommended in climates in which freezing temperatures occur.

Capacity & Rating Efficiency

Most consumers base their purchase on the size of the water heater. However, the peak hour demand capacity, referred to as the first-hour rating (FHR) and Energy Factor (EF) should be the major basis.

FHR is a measure of how much hot water the heater will deliver during a busy hour, and it is required by law to be listed on the water heaters EnergyGuide label. Gas water heaters have higher FHR's than electric units of the same size. It may be to your benefit to switch to a smaller gas unit. Please bear in mind that if you do decide to switch, other installations costs may be incurred. See the venting section below.

EF is the best indicator of a water heater's efficiency which is based on recovery efficiency (how fast heat is transferred to the water). In short or layman's terms, the higher the EF, the more efficient the water heater.

Venting

Things that you should be aware of especially if you are:

- converting to a gas or oil-fired water heater in an electrically heated home.

In this instance, since no chimney will be available, you have the option of installing a direct vent or power vented gas or oil water heater. Flue gases are extracted through the sidewall of the home.

- converting from an oil-fired water heater to a propane or gas model.

May require that your existing chimney or vent to be resized and the liner changed to maintain adequate draft to avoid condensation in the vent system. Alternatively, a direct vent or power vented unit could be installed.

- replacing an existing gas, propane or oil-fired water heater with a more efficient model.

Sidewall venting may be the only practical option because of the potential increase in condensation formed in the venting system.

- replacing an existing gas, propane, or oil-fired water heater with an electric water heater.

Electric water heaters require no venting. They are simple to install and can be located in many areas of the home.

Additional Important Note

Most municipalities require permits, etc. prior to installation/replacement of water heater systems. Consult your local code officials for details. As always if you feel uncomfortable performing any of these tasks, please consult a professional.

I hope you enjoyed this little tip. This tip sheet is distributed freely to NACHI members and guests. Feel free to copy and disseminate this information in any way you feel comfortable with. You can either credit the original author or adjust the content to facilitate your own business or organization.

This tip sheet was prepared as a general reference guide only. The author assumes no legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights. Reference herein to any specific commercial product, process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring.
 
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