Income a family of four need to live comfortably by state in the U.S.

[Dave Hess]

Living where? People are doing it wrong if they need 150k a year most places in the US to get by.

OK $150K gross husband and wife for family of 4 as noted in OP article.

Minus:
Taxes
401K / IRA retirement, saving 20% of $150K
Health Insurance
Dental Insurance
Long / Short term disability (optional)
Mortgage
HOA ?
Property taxes
Homeowners insurance
Flood insurance ?
Utilities
Groceries
Car payment(s) ??
Car insurance for 2
Gasoline for 2
Tolls traveling to and from work
Kids activities
Kids sports
Kids clothing and shoes
Emergency fund for leaking roof, car repair, home A/C replacement
Family night fund
Etc, Etc, Etc……


Like I mentioned previously my dad supported a family of 6 on an airline A&P mechanic salary.
That’s simply impossible today even if the person was making $60 an hour at major airline.
.

 

[tbm5690]

Like I mentioned previously my dad supported a family of 6 on an airline A&P mechanic salary.
That’s simply impossible today even if the person was making $55 an hour at major airline.

That's nearly $115k per year without overtime.

I'm the impossible I guess...wife stays at home, never had a car payment, chose a 20 year mortgage and have healthy savings. How? Choices, budgeting to the literal penny, and mostly choices. I chose to not have a car payment, let alone 2 by owning cars that are (4) and (10) years old. My wife cooks and we don't eat out 5x per week. Turns out you don't need daycare when a parent stays home to raise the kids. Family vacations can still be fun and create lasting memories without spending $5k per trip. Again...choices.

 

[fdcg27]

Fair enough, but I would be curious as to why you think this? IMO, Tech, via the rise of data, will be the key differentiator in business going forward. Just like Finance and MRP solutions were in the 90's forward, not to mention engineering...

Today, IoT, AI, Quantum Computers and Smart Mfg are on the Critical Path.
Quantum Computing will be used to solve problems that traditional binary computers are not suited for.

My guess is you may understand this better than I... From Microsoft:
"The idea of a quantum computer was born out of the difficulty of simulating quantum systems on a classical computer. In the 1980s, Richard Feynman and Yuri Manin independently suggested that hardware based on quantum phenomena might be more efficient for the simulation of quantum systems than conventional computers.

There are many ways to understand why quantum mechanics is hard to simulate. The simplest is to see that matter, at a quantum level, is in a multitude of possible configurations (known as states).

Consider a system of electrons where there are 40 possible locations. The system therefore might be in any of 2^40 configurations (since each location can either have or not have an electron). To store the quantum state of the electrons in a conventional computer memory would require in excess of 130 GB of memory! If we allowed the particles to be in any of 41 positions, there would be twice as many configurations at 2^41 which in turn would require more than 260 GB of memory to store the quantum state.

This game of increasing the number of locations can't be played indefinitely. If we want to store the state conventionally, we would quickly exceed the memory capacities of the world's most powerful machines. At a few hundred electrons the memory required to store the system exceeds the number of particles in the universe; thus there is no hope with our conventional computers to ever simulate their quantum dynamics."

I think that many of us have a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics.
The thing is that IT or "tech" is becoming a mature industry in which any newish development spreads rapidly to every company in this space.
What was a must buy killer app ten years ago becomes the common standard for all entrants in a very short span of time today.
I'd doubt that any one company will have any breakthrough hardware or software implementation to itself for more than a very short span of time in the world of today, so the values of some of these "tech" stocks may be quite inflated.
Things do change and industries do mature, so the wise investment of yesterday may be little more than hype today.
AI, for example, is already pretty well commoditized, so the notion that there's big money to be made in certain stocks is probably mistaken. There was for a moment, but that moment may well have passed.

 

[GON]

I'd be bummed, I get more done at home--less people interrupting me.

Yes, we all are sure you are getting more done at home. But what about your job? Planting flowers, mowing the yard, painting the bedroom- we get it. But your employer is paying you .

 

[Dave Hess]

That's nearly $115k per year without overtime.

I'm the impossible I guess...wife stays at home, never had a car payment, chose a 20 year mortgage and have healthy savings. How? Choices, budgeting to the literal penny, and mostly choices. I chose to not have a car payment, let alone 2 by owning cars that are (4) and (10) years old. My wife cooks and we don't eat out 5x per week. Turns out you don't need daycare when a parent stays home to raise the kids. Family vacations can still be fun and create lasting memories without spending $5k per trip. Again...choices.

The average family in USA really not doing that great.

Lots of people paycheck to paycheck. No doubt crazy inflation can NOT be ignored even if the guy on TV says everything is sunshine and roses.

Again, depending on where a person lives determines if they can stretch their money.
Some areas of the USA very expensive and wages are stagnant.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I’m fortunate to work from home and have company car.
I wouldn’t hesitate to go back to office if my boss told me to return to office or no job.

I don’t want to be working at Starbucks drive thru window or collecting shopping carts at Walmart.

I have technically been WFH for 20+ years, which means mostly work from customers factory somewhere. I would be happy to go to the office daily but it would be 1000 mile commute.

Good friend of mine does the same. We have had this discussion multiple times and have concluded that the WFH crowd that doesn't do anything, likely did not much in the office other than hold down a chair. Lets face it - if they went home and didn't do anything, should be pretty easy to figure out.

 

[supton]

Yes, we all are sure you are getting more done at home. But what about your job? Planting flowers, mowing the yard, painting the bedroom- we get it. But your employer is paying you .

Ha! I'm actually trying to keep track of my time spent (OneNote is good for this, have it always open in one window), trying to keep to 8 hours (although a couple of 10's means I get Friday afternoon's off, right?). The problem is, while I can give good categories (projects) for most time spent, I wind up with a lot of "misc" when in office, while at home, if I can't turn it on, I just wander off. An hour or two off can clear the mind.

Took a couple hours off late this afternoon, am now just wrapping up for the day. Only did half of what I wanted, too many meetings popped up and ran late. Too tired to get to that second task I wanted to do today (learn a bit about Ansys). But I got my bike ride in, and my sanity has been restored (for a few hours at least).

 

[GON]

Another article that provides another data point to the original post.

The salary you need to be considered middle class in every U.S. state—it's close to $200,000 in 2 of them​

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/16/salary-needed-to-be-middle-class-in-every-us-state.html

 

[JeffKeryk]

I think that many of us have a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics.
The thing is that IT or "tech" is becoming a mature industry in which any newish development spreads rapidly to every company in this space.
What was a must buy killer app ten years ago becomes the common standard for all entrants in a very short span of time today.
I'd doubt that any one company will have any breakthrough hardware or software implementation to itself for more than a very short span of time in the world of today, so the values of some of these "tech" stocks may be quite inflated.
Things do change and industries do mature, so the wise investment of yesterday may be little more than hype today.
AI, for example, is already pretty well commoditized, so the notion that there's big money to be made in certain stocks is probably mistaken. There was for a moment, but that moment may well have passed.

You must live in a different world than I do. Has your company implemented Industry 5.0?

 

[JeffKeryk]

The WFM thing drives me crazy. There are a lot of employees around here who seem to think it is their right to WFM and coming in to the office is optional. Makes me sick. No one owes me anything; it is a privilege to have a good job.

 

[supton]

The WFM thing drives me crazy. There are a lot of employees around here who seem to think it is their right to WFM and coming in to the office is optional. Makes me sick. No one owes me anything; it is a privilege to have a good job.

WFM? what’s that? Work From Mom’s (basement)?

 

[JeffKeryk]

WFM? what’s that? Work From Mom’s (basement)?

Now ya know why I was a lousy programmer...
But ya, some of the younger staff are a bunch of Momma's boys. I just don't get it.

 

[JHZR2]

Fair enough, but I would be curious as to why you think this? IMO, Tech, via the rise of data, will be the key differentiator in business going forward. Just like Finance and MRP solutions were in the 90's forward, not to mention engineering...

Today, IoT, AI, Quantum Computers and Smart Mfg are on the Critical Path.
Quantum Computing will be used to solve problems that traditional binary computers are not suited for.

My guess is you may understand this better than I... From Microsoft:
"The idea of a quantum computer was born out of the difficulty of simulating quantum systems on a classical computer. In the 1980s, Richard Feynman and Yuri Manin independently suggested that hardware based on quantum phenomena might be more efficient for the simulation of quantum systems than conventional computers.

There are many ways to understand why quantum mechanics is hard to simulate. The simplest is to see that matter, at a quantum level, is in a multitude of possible configurations (known as states).

Consider a system of electrons where there are 40 possible locations. The system therefore might be in any of 2^40 configurations (since each location can either have or not have an electron). To store the quantum state of the electrons in a conventional computer memory would require in excess of 130 GB of memory! If we allowed the particles to be in any of 41 positions, there would be twice as many configurations at 2^41 which in turn would require more than 260 GB of memory to store the quantum state.

This game of increasing the number of locations can't be played indefinitely. If we want to store the state conventionally, we would quickly exceed the memory capacities of the world's most powerful machines. At a few hundred electrons the memory required to store the system exceeds the number of particles in the universe; thus there is no hope with our conventional computers to ever simulate their quantum dynamics."

Why I think it is? Simple, because the value of the tech is many multiples higher than the value of the underlying businesses that would notionally benefit.

Heck, the valuation of the tech businesses are encroaching on the entirety of the national GDP, and some of this tech isn’t even a tangible product, it’s essentially spying and tracking and knowing something about folks to sell ads (e.g., Google). Others have quality tangible products (e.g., MSFT OS/office, Apple computers and phones, Nvidia chipsets), but it’s dubious those items are the “value proposition”. Instead it’s the allure of “what if” forward demand and earnings for the next best thing. Which of course is part of valuation, but IMO it’s an excess valuation for what it is, when the underlying enabler is valued much less. Case in point, Apple sells lots of iPhones and whatnot. It has a reasonably high P/E of like 29. Yet the underlying businesses that enable the iPhone, companies like T, have P/E of 9. More egregiously, NVDA has a P/E of like 80 on the whim that more folks want their chips. Or TSLA has a P/E vastly different than other industrial automakers, on the premise of “tech” of which other traditional makers have caught up in many ways.

I love tech. I’m involved in high tech and R&D. It’s just crazy that it takes speculation based valuation when the underlying user and enabler is worth so much less.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Why I think it is? Simple, because the value of the tech is many multiples higher than the value of the underlying businesses that would notionally benefit.

Heck, the valuation of the tech businesses are encroaching on the entirety of the national GDP, and some of this tech isn’t even a tangible product, it’s essentially spying and tracking and knowing something about folks to sell ads (e.g., Google). Others have quality tangible products (e.g., MSFT OS/office, Apple computers and phones, Nvidia chipsets), but it’s dubious those items are the “value proposition”. Instead it’s the allure of “what if” forward demand and earnings for the next best thing. Which of course is part of valuation, but IMO it’s an excess valuation for what it is, when the underlying enabler is valued much less. Case in point, Apple sells lots of iPhones and whatnot. It has a reasonably high P/E of like 29. Yet the underlying businesses that enable the iPhone, companies like T, have P/E of 9. More egregiously, NVDA has a P/E of like 80 on the whim that more folks want their chips. Or TSLA has a P/E vastly different than other industrial automakers, on the premise of “tech” of which other traditional makers have caught up in many ways.

I love tech. I’m involved in high tech and R&D. It’s just crazy that it takes speculation based valuation when the underlying user and enabler is worth so much less.

Well stated. I will add that the internet revolution which was supposed to change the world (and did eventually) gave similar multiples to Lucent and Intel. The real winners in that space like Amazon and Google didn't even really participate in 1999. If Quantum and AI do come to fruition it will be those that can figure out how to use it that will make the money.

 

[4WD]

Well stated. I will add that the internet revolution which was supposed to change the world (and did eventually) gave similar multiples to Lucent and Intel. The real winners in that space like Amazon and Google didn't even really participate in 1999. If Quantum and AI do come to fruition it will be those that can figure out how to use it that will make the money.

In many positive and negative ways - including making it easy to waste money that mainly goes to China and a few wealthy executives …

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

My experience with WFH is different than some. I have a WFH team which is producing deep double digit percentage revenue growth.

The trick is to hire, motivate, and incentivize the right employees. Some industries are more conducive to it than others. I personally think the WFH shift is the best thing that ever happened in the job market.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

OK-your Mom was dealt a bad hand. Not all children end up in a situation like that. I have been in many parts of the world were there are no social programs that step in when this situation arrives. Not that it still isn't tough.

My mother raised two boys by herself in the 70's and 80's. She always made about $50 too much per year to qualify for any benefits.

All of these people whining about things today, my mother was making less than $15k/year in the early 80's. No Food stamps, no EBT, no free or reduced lunch at schools, no welfare check each month.

There's a lot of kids out there like this. Always has been. Some make it, many don't.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

My experience with WFH is different than some. I have a WFH team which is producing deep double digit percentage revenue growth.

The trick is to hire, motivate, and incentivize the right employees. Some industries are more conducive to it than others. I personally think the WFH shift is the best thing that ever happened in the job market.

Can you help me out with how to get buildings/factories/plants built with the WFH concept? I haven't been able to make it work in the last 4 years. Same with hospitalization, maintenance, re-configuring process lines, removing/replacing piping, and more.


TIA

 

[Thermo1223]

The average family in USA really not doing that great.

Lots of people paycheck to paycheck. No doubt crazy inflation can NOT be ignored even if the guy on TV says everything is sunshine and roses.

Again, depending on where a person lives determines if they can stretch their money.
Some areas of the USA very expensive and wages are stagnant.

Truth,

Not everyone can survive like the typical Norman Rockwell American family. Father at work, wife being a homebody. 2.4 kids, family dog, etc...

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

What many don't realize is that items needed to sustain and items that you got used to having haven't gone up "9%". They've gone up 30, 40, 60, 100%.

Groceries are up over 50% since 2019.
Gasoline has been up 50% the last 42 months since 2019
Electricity has risen 20-40% in most areas.
Car insurance has gone up 40-80% for most people.
Property taxes have increased 20-50% for most homeowners.
Homeowner's insurance has risen 30-50% for most.
Labor and materials for repairs, maintenance and construction have risen 30-80%. Steel, aluminum and copper are double what they were in 2018.

When all of this hits you and your wages have risen 10-20%, you will quickly spend down your "Fluff", start eating into savings and/or start cutting things out.


The cutting things out - know what that does? Creates unemployment, reduced business revenue and more for many. Multiply that "cutting back" by 200 million or so. You'll see the shocked faces on 'the news' shortly....