Income a family of four need to live comfortably by state in the U.S.

[John105]

Thermo1223, this is interesting and very personal info?

A couple thoughts….your salary has rapidly increased lately. Great job!

I look at my own situation and my salary is just under triple from 1999. But I did change jobs.

Another thought is Soc sec encompasses bonus and any payouts such as vacation time when leaving an employer

 

[CKN]

That may be beneficial to a few, but looking at it in macro context, am I really better off paying higher taxes and insurance for 20 years so I can get a HELOC at some future time.

Is our nation better off financially by having single family homes growing much faster than inflation so Grandma can have a reverse mortgage while family formation is delayed because young people cannot buy homes.

Looking at it more granularly - Is a retired person with an ocean view Condo in California worth $4M really better off than a retired person in Charleston with a $1M ocean view condo?

You would better off getting a reverse mortgage-most qualify on here-that own their own home. I just don't want to hear some screaming poverty on here-when in many cases they are setting on hundreds of thousand of dollars of accessible equity-with no payments until they die.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Some Stuff

OK

 

[JeffKeryk]

This is very wrong.
You dont go where the money is, you go where there is a balance of income and cost of living.
Im not impressed at all with 2M homes the size of a shoebox when someone can live in a home like this for 75% less. But if they follow the masses into a life of servitude living like that well, then...
You who like me advocates financial education in high school, it's about education not blanket statements of where to make the money. It's about thinking out of the box and calculating a best place to live.

To me, many people in the NY Metro area live miserable lives (though they dont know it until they get out) with high incomes, can have much less stress and higher standard of living by getting out of the Northeast and making less money. I was there and I made some of that income. No I didnt live in one of the houses in the link. It's actually why many of the uber rich are leaving NY. IN fact its so bad that NY is trying to discourage the wealthy from leaving but creating an "exit tax"
At the same time they bribe the young to stay by offering college if they sign a contract that they will not leave NY for 5 years after graduation. Desperate times.

Two of my Doctors, specialists here in North Carolina are both from up north. One from an upper income area of Great Neck NY (part of the link below). The other did his residency at the Cleveland Clinic, one of the most leading heart hospitals in the world. Both of them were thrilled to get out of there. It's great to make money and have the governments up there take it from you or the mentality of settling for tiny homes at inflated prices.
Im just posting this as outside of your box, Silicon Valley is not the only place in the country who makes money. Here is a slice metro area of NY

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...l},"ah":{"value":true}},"isListVisible":true}

and 500k to 2m same area
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...:true}},"isListVisible":true,"pagination":{}}

and these are the average "Joe" who with some imagination can cash out and live a good lifestyle in the more southern states with a fraction of the tax burden.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...0},"ah":{"value":true}},"isListVisible":true}

Each to their own. I certainly am not advocating for anyone to be miserable. But the point is, opportunity abounds in Silicon Valley. Real estate is one way to do well, but like most things, does not happen overnight. And no one said it was gonna be easy, or everyone would have it. You and I both know that's not how life works.

And definitely the rigors of Silicon Valley are not for everyone. It is pretty ruthless here.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

When we bought out first house it cost about 2x a two-earner family income. We bought low end so as not to be house poor - but in a nice geo location on 2 acres. I am still here 34 years hence. Time to move though. House is toast - but land is good.

Now its 4-5x two earner income for a shack. The low mortgage rates helped swing it, but they have evaporated.

Can't find anything decent on the market under $450k up here and slim pickings at that.

Don't want to be house poor. Don't have enough equity to flip into 1/2 a million retirement digs.
Coud eat into some IRA money but - don't want to be house poor.

May have to build new. I bet this will be stressful when you are old and only semi-well. I have watched this done.

I wouldn't want to be young ones in this climate - but I see my nieces and nephews doing well. They are pretty darn smart and responsible. They have good patents. Phew!

They are not looking back with that melancholy, that auld lang syne; they are looking forward with that wonderful, youthful optimism.

-

 

[JeffKeryk]

They are not looking back with that melancholy, that auld lang syne; they are looking forward with that wonderful, youthful optimism.

-

Love this!

 

[John105]

When we bought out first house it cost about 2x a two-earner family income. We bought low end so as not to be house poor - but in a nice geo location on 2 acres. I am still here 34 years hence. Time to move though. House is toast - but land is good.

Now its 4-5x two earner income for a shack. The low mortgage rates helped swing it, but they have evaporated.

Can't find anything decent on the market under $450k up here and slim pickings at that.

Don't want to be house poor. Don't have enough equity to flip into 1/2 a million retirement digs.
Coud eat into some IRA money but - don't want to be house poor.

May have to build new. I bet this will be stressful when you are old and only semi-well. I have watched this done.

I wouldn't want to be young ones in this climate - but I see my nieces and nephews doing well. They are pretty darn smart and responsible. They have good patents. Phew!

They are not looking back with that melancholy, that auld lang syne; they are looking forward with that wonderful, youthful optimism.

-

I hear you and also don’t believe it’s hopeless being young. Just off the top of my head from professional contacts…

Just got into Stanford Business School with bf!

Just got a job at John Deere!

Just promoted to svp at KPMG!

Accepted at UF law school!

These are the 22-28 yo group. They seem to be pursuing their futures and for all I know broke. But they are certainly enthusiastic and haven’t come close to throwing in the towel.

I don’t like to admit it, but some of them have faced intense competition that I never have to date. More power to them, they will figure it out and maybe lead us into the future…

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

OK

Yeah, that’s what I thought. You need to have some empathy for people dealing with the very real situation in the housing market. It’s quantitatively the least affordable it ever has been, especially in certain areas. It’s not a zero sum situation; admitting today’s problems doesn’t detract from problems of yesterday.

I bought a sub-2000 sqft 1 car garage starter house in 2011 for just over $160k. It’s now worth $600k. That’s a 275% increase. My salary has increased 150% in that time. If I wanted a substantially better house, I’d have to spend several hundreds of thousands more.

The plain fact is that the housing market is increasing faster than even successful people can keep up. It’s absolutely bonkers.

I am fortunate to be as successful as I am. I have good problems. But my lord you’re out of touch if you cannot see how the housing market is presenting very real and serious problems for those younger than you.

 

[Thermo1223]

Thermo1223, this is interesting and very personal info?

A couple thoughts….your salary has rapidly increased lately. Great job!

I look at my own situation and my salary is just under triple from 1999. But I did change jobs.

Another thought is Soc sec encompasses bonus and any payouts such as vacation time when leaving an employer

It's no more personal than me giving Google my daily driving habits or tracking my websites via ip address. Since BITOG can't associate it with a SS# I feel relatively safe.

The company I've worked for has risen greatly over the last decade and now having more responsibility includes and should greater pay. I often wonder where I would be if I changed jobs. I know I certainly wouldn't have the freedom I do now though.

 

[Thermo1223]

The odd thing about that very table, handy, but mine didn't show the years I paid SE SS tax. When I paid both halves. Only showed my employee for a co. side. Odd that! Mistake??

That is kinda odd, I'd argue it could be a mistake.

 

[jeepman3071]

You forgot the critical part where your children had parents who understood finance.

I am thankful every single day my parents were hard on me. I still tell the story of when my dad told me at 13 that I could have ANY car I wanted when I turned 16, I would just have to buy it myself.

 

[John105]

I am thankful every single day my parents were hard on me. I still tell the story of when my dad told me at 13 that I could have ANY car I wanted when I turned 16, I would just have to buy it myself.

oddly my wife’s 46 yo cousin who lives at home with his parents and has never held a full time job said that to me a couple years ago, that I’m lucky to have had parents hard on me growing up. I think he’s not telling the truth. I think he shunned his dad when his dad tried to be hard on him. Mom had always coddled him.

But I agree. My parents were hard on me down to getting in to the right college, saying not good enough (while bragging to their friends). I don’t agree with it and I don’t treat my own son that way, but knowing myself if they had been easy on me I’d be messed up

Ps my buddy frosh year college he got a CRX Si, and his brother a Mercedes 500 SEC (parents Uber wealthy).

 

[tbm5690]

Another thought...a specific number for salary is useless without defining benefits. Weak/no retirement contributions, health care, vacation, etc. all negate what can appear to be a healthy number on paper. COL in a locale but also state tax also comes into play. Take-home is what matters.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Yeah, that’s what I thought. You need to have some empathy for people dealing with the very real situation in the housing market. It’s quantitatively the least affordable it ever has been, especially in certain areas. It’s not a zero sum situation; admitting today’s problems doesn’t detract from problems of yesterday.

I bought a sub-2000 sqft 1 car garage starter house in 2011 for just over $160k. It’s now worth $600k. That’s a 275% increase. My salary has increased 150% in that time. If I wanted a substantially better house, I’d have to spend several hundreds of thousands more.

The plain fact is that the housing market is increasing faster than even successful people can keep up. It’s absolutely bonkers.

I am fortunate to be as successful as I am. I have good problems. But my lord you’re out of touch if you cannot see how the housing market is presenting very real and serious problems for those younger than you.

You were able to buy a "Starter Home" for $160k.... in 2011. And you're STILL whining about how unfair things are today in the housing market.

2011 was in the era of some of the WORST economical times in this country's history. There were still massive layoffs happening across the board. Pay cuts and more. If you bought a house in 2011, you probably paid less than half of real market value, in my experience.

One could buy hoards of 1-BR/1BA condos on the beach on the Gulf of Mexico in Florida for $80-90K each. I saw Ocean Front properties in the Sarasota beaches area going for $275k. Granted, these were slab-on-grade, small "shacks". Today, the land alone at what few of these places are left is worth $1.5M or more.

Bottom line - if you were able to secure a mortgage in 2011 and you bought a house, you were able to take advantage of a very, very suppressed market. The house was probably valued at $200k in 2004 and might have been valued at $375k in 2007... If Zillow or a realtor is saying it's worth $600k today and you paid $160k, I'd seriously think about taking that tax-free gain and running like a scalded dog. Maybe rent for a year. Rents are down.

It also sounds like you might live in an area where the local economy is screamin'... I bet you could find similar employment in a less-expensive area to live, but yeah, your paycheck would suffer also. It's how it works. High pay, high housing and living costs. Also lots of people. How'd that work out in 2020?

I know a LOT about the housing market. I've been trying to buy investment properties for nearly a year. Either renter houses or fixer-uppers. I can't make the numbers work with any of it. Every single fixer-upper out there needs a minimum of $100k in renovation work. It needs to sell for $250-300k in my area to sell fast, and anything less than $100k is border-line knock-down or it sells in hours sight-unseen. The only houses I've been able to look at are $200k+ or we have a contingent at $125k, needs $125k in work and won't sell for more than $200k.

Same thing with renter houses. With Fannie Mae jacking up investor rates to nearly 9%, I can't make a $125k house work where the rent is $1000/mo.

Trust me, I agree that housing is in a stupid place right now. What I DO KNOW is it always corrects itself. I'm old enough to have seen it time after time. I also know that you better be on the right side of it when the music stops. I know all about a young person starting out, trying to find a decent place to live AND be able to pay for it. There's not many jobs out there that are paying enough for a young person to live in a 1BR apartment and pay their living expenses.... and I'm not including a car payment.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

You were able to buy a "Starter Home" for $160k.... in 2011. And you're STILL whining about how unfair things are today in the housing market.

Where did I whine? Where did I say things were unfair? Please do not put words on me which I never said. Again, its'd like you have some other person in mind you're talking about.

2011 was in the era of some of the WORST economical times in this country's history. There were still massive layoffs happening across the board. Pay cuts and more. If you bought a house in 2011, you probably paid less than half of real market value, in my experience.

I am well aware. I was looking for employment during that time. I saw my opportunity and made it happen by bidding on a foreclosure. It took a lot of learning and agency on my part at the time for such a young person.

One could buy hoards of 1-BR/1BA condos on the beach on the Gulf of Mexico in Florida for $80-90K each. I saw Ocean Front properties in the Sarasota beaches area going for $275k. Granted, these were slab-on-grade, small "shacks". Today, the land alone at what few of these places are left is worth $1.5M or more.

Exactly my point. The appreciation has been out of proportion with other vectors of economic growth.

Bottom line - if you were able to secure a mortgage in 2011 and you bought a house, you were able to take advantage of a very, very suppressed market. The house was probably valued at $200k in 2004 and might have been valued at $375k in 2007... If Zillow or a realtor is saying it's worth $600k today and you paid $160k, I'd seriously think about taking that tax-free gain and running like a scalded dog. Maybe rent for a year. Rents are down.

I already did.

It also sounds like you might live in an area where the local economy is screamin'... I bet you could find similar employment in a less-expensive area to live, but yeah, your paycheck would suffer also. It's how it works. High pay, high housing and living costs. Also lots of people. How'd that work out in 2020?

Ah, you have not read my posts because I have already covered this. I live in CO. I also work remotely, so can move anywhere I want.

I know a LOT about the housing market. I've been trying to buy investment properties for nearly a year. Either renter houses or fixer-uppers. I can't make the numbers work with any of it. Every single fixer-upper out there needs a minimum of $100k in renovation work. It needs to sell for $250-300k in my area to sell fast, and anything less than $100k is border-line knock-down or it sells in hours sight-unseen. The only houses I've been able to look at are $200k+ or we have a contingent at $125k, needs $125k in work and won't sell for more than $200k.

So why have a piss-poor attitude towards other people in the same boat? Just like feeling good about thinking bad about younger generations?

Trust me, I agree that housing is in a stupid place right now. What I DO KNOW is it always corrects itself. I'm old enough to have seen it time after time. I also know that you better be on the right side of it when the music stops. I know all about a young person starting out, trying to find a decent place to live AND be able to pay for it. There's not many jobs out there that are paying enough for a young person to live in a 1BR apartment and pay their living expenses.... and I'm not including a car payment.

OK, so why moan about GPS and concerts and all that irrelevant generational trash talk earlier?

 

[Dave Hess]

Older folks with some money will help their children (now adults) because everything is so expensive and unrealistic.

I would rather help my kids financially than buy a fancy boat and F250 truck with that money.

 

[gfh77665]

Older folks with some money will help their children (now adults) because everything is so expensive and unrealistic.

I would rather help my kids financially than buy a fancy boat and F250 truck with that money.

We think alike. My adult kids are infinitly more important to me than any material stuff. I want to leave them a healthy legacy, and help them along the way when and if needed.

 

[PWMDMD]

If all they are doing is averaging across the entire state then these numbers can be very misleading. I purposely live outside the reasonable commuting radius of Boston because my house just 10 miles east of here would be double, 20 miles east of here triple, and just outside Boston it would be quadruple. It's 60 mins from my front door to TD Garden. If you go west of me, with the exception of the Amherst area, it is the sticks and much much much more affordable. If you remove Fairfield County in CT, the state of CT becomes one of the most impoverished states in the union, but when you add it back in it is one of the wealthiest because of its proximity to NYC.

Many of these states have a smallish population of uber-wealthy people living in small uber-expensive areas and a larger group of well-off people living around cities, but the rest of the state population is not subjected to those costs of living. Half of the MA population lives in the Boston metro area and the other half in the rest of the state. If you want to live in a suburb of Boston or NYC, sure, it's expensive, but no one in Western MA needs to make $300K to be comfortable and that would make you a really big fish in that pound.

 

[fdcg27]

If all they are doing is averaging across the entire state then these numbers can be very misleading. I purposely live outside the reasonable commuting radius of Boston because my house just 10 miles east of here would be double, 20 miles east of here triple, and just outside Boston it would be quadruple. It's 60 mins from my front door to TD Garden. If you go west of me, with the exception of the Amherst area, it is the sticks and much much much more affordable. If you remove Fairfield County in CT, the state of CT becomes one of the most impoverished states in the union, but when you add it back in it is one of the wealthiest because of its proximity to NYC.

Many of these states have a smallish population of uber-wealthy people living in small uber-expensive areas and a larger group of well-off people living around cities, but the rest of the state population is not subjected to those costs of living. Half of the MA population lives in the Boston metro area and the other half in the rest of the state. If you want to live in a suburb of Boston or NYC, sure, it's expensive, but no one in Western MA needs to make $300K to be comfortable and that would make you a really big fish in that pound.

An important observation that I've made in other threads.
If you look carefully you can often find less costly places in which to live which still put you reasonably close to a large city.
An additional factor is that these areas typically have less restrictive zoning and permitting regulations as well as an absence of HOAs.

 

[PWMDMD]

An important observation that I've made in other threads.
If you look carefully you can often find less costly places in which to live which still put you reasonably close to a large city.
An additional factor is that these areas typically have less restrictive zoning and permitting regulations as well as an absence of HOAs.

There is also still a lot of upside potential too. I paid much less than what I would've paid slightly closer to Boston and the price of my home has still doubled in 9 years. That has NOT happened closer to Boston.