Income a family of four need to live comfortably by state in the U.S.

[John105]

3/years ? What is the shelf life … I don’t use allot and get the CA stuff bcs it’s good and USA … not sure imports are well controlled …

Good point seems the web says 18 mos unopened…

“I'm making a cake for my boss and ran out of veg oil and only need a half cup. I found an old opened bottle in the basement and will use it if I can. I don’t like my boss that much and not overly concerned since I’m retiring soon. Thanks for any advice!”

 

[4WD]

Good point seems the web says 18 mos unopened…

“I'm making a cake for my boss and ran out of veg oil and only need a half cup. I found an old opened bottle in the basement and will use it if I can. I don’t like my boss that much and not overly concerned since I’m retiring soon. Thanks for any advice!”

Cool - Thanks -
I need to start putting it in a spray bottle and leave the junk Pam type stuff behind for coating BBQ grills and pans …

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

I have exactly zero desire to live in those CA locations. If you want money, go where the money is.

"Because that's where the money is" is a quote attributed to Willie Sutton, a bank robber from the 1930s and 40s. When asked why he robbed banks, he is said to have replied, "Because that's where the money is". This became famous and is now known as "Sutton's Law".

Yeah, you can find cheap places in any state. Sure a trailer in a dirt field is cheap but not a great place to raise a family.

 

[alarmguy]

My cousin's daughter has 2 Masters from Cornell. In some kind of horticulture. She can't even get a job in that field. Makes like $19 per hour in NY somewhere, sometimes 90+ hours per week to get by.
She has been paying back the loans for years. Recently her (perhaps $100K) debt was forgiven. I absolutely cringe even typing this. Today she understands those disastrous college decisions. A little late, doncha think? The whole thing is beyond any common sense I can come up with.

Who was to blame? Plenty to go around...

• herself
• her parents
• her advisors
• whoever gave her those loans

The blame is on her and no one else, she is an adult.
Student loan program is another government failure. But taxpayers wanted it, thinking they could do better than private industry so was born the student loan program, another money losing operation.

No way on planet earth could she have been excused on 100k of loans (Just an FYI) At the very most, last I knew was depending on qualification loan forgiveness means $10,000 to a max of $20,000 if you qualify.

The youth is constantly being weakened to state of relying on "the state" let me know how well that goes when I am no longer on this earth, good luck and their kids once they start having to have to learn to be reliant on themselves instead of handouts.

 

[alarmguy]

I have exactly zero desire to live in those CA locations. If you want money, go where the money is.

"Because that's where the money is" is a quote attributed to Willie Sutton, a bank robber from the 1930s and 40s. When asked why he robbed banks, he is said to have replied, "Because that's where the money is". This became famous and is now known as "Sutton's Law".

IT doesnt matter your desire, there are those saying these places do not exist in CA, I jsut showed they exist in CA and every state in the Union. If one doesnt want to live there, then they have to figure it out themselves. But the story posted is not accurate and I showed why.

 

[burbguy82]

I knew a concrete contractor (now deceased). He started with not a penny and died with a net worth of over 60 million USD. Until the day he died, he read the grocery sales paper, and would spend his day buying whatever groceries were on sale at whatever part of town. His home was never updated, and when he passed his home required gutting to be sold. He drove an older Mercedes, and it was beat up and not maintained.

This wealthy man was very financially comfortable but did not live comfortably according to some standards/measurements.

This guy had it figured out it sounds like to me. There is nothing wrong with that.

Years ago, one of the richest men in Las Vegas, Jack Binion, owner of the Horseshoe Hoyel and Casino, 4 of them actually around the USA, lived near my old middle school, in a 1700 square foot house, in a regular neighborhood.

People like this, are likely without enemies, and have some great allies.

 

[burbguy82]

The blame is on her, she is an adult.
Student loan program is another government failure. But taxpayers wanted it, thinking they could do better than private industry so was born the student loan program, another money losing operation.

No way on planet earth could she have been excused on 100k of loans (Just an FYI) At the very most, last I knew was depending on qualification loan forgiveness means $10,000 to a max of $20,000 if you qualify.

The youth is constantly being weakened to state of relying on "the state" let me know how well that goes when I am no longer on this earth, good luck and their kids once they start having them are going to have to learn to be reliant on themselves instead of handouts.

100%

 

[JeffKeryk]

The blame is on her, she is an adult.
Student loan program is another government failure. But taxpayers wanted it, thinking they could do better than private industry so was born the student loan program, another money losing operation.

No way on planet earth could she have been excused on 100k of loans (Just an FYI) At the very most, last I knew was depending on qualification loan forgiveness means $10,000 to a max of $20,000 if you qualify.

The youth is constantly being weakened to state of relying on "the state" let me know how well that goes when I am no longer on this earth, good luck and their kids once they start having them are going to have to learn to be reliant on themselves instead of handouts.

She was 17 when this started. She got a lot of advice, none of which was good. Perhaps the worst was from the college advisors from Cornell who sold her on the program so they could fill these classes.
There is a lot of blame to go around.

I don't know the whole story, but her loan(s) were forgiven early this year for about $100K. She had been paying for over 10 years. The whole thing, IMO is a mess. Everyone loses except Cornell.

I stress the need for personal finance classes starting in grade school.

 

[JHZR2]

Or what would he be paying on his next purchase? I have a friend in that situation; she has a big home and would like to downsize, but her under 3% fixed rate is free money nowadays.

Yeah that’s an interesting situation.

I always find it funny when folks look at mortgages as free money. The money lost in interest is still insane. It’s just less insane than at the current rates.

It’s not free. For a 30yr loan, you pay 50% more than the home value at 3%, and it just gets worse:

At 6% you pay more in interest than the property value, and at 9% it’s nearly double the property’s value in interest.

Staggering amounts of money for most people. Sure, it used to be that you could deduct it from taxes… and notionally, appreciation offset the huge amounts of money out the window.

Certainly not “free”. More like a necessary evil.

 

[JeffKeryk]

IT doesnt matter your desire, there are those saying these places do not exist in CA, I jsut showed they exist in CA and every state in the Union. If one doesnt want to live there, then they have to figure it out themselves. But the story posted is not accurate and I showed why.

Sure. Everyone thinks all of CA is this very expensive place to live. And many places are. A 1200 sq ft home on my block is $2M and up. And I live in the poor part of Los Gatos; the rich people live just up the hill; I am not allowed there.

My point is, if you want to make money, be comfortable, whatever, go where the money is. There is a reason property prices are what they are, high or low...

Just before retiring, I was working with a young man who was living with his wife and like 5 kids up in Oregon. This kid was really sharp; I told him he would thrive in Silicon Valley. After I was retired for a few months, I got a call out of the blue from him. He quit his job, uprooted the family and came down here. I thought he was crazy; he was over the top excited! He was hired as a Data Scientist at Google for like $260K. My guess is he has blown past that.

 

[Astro14]

My cousin's daughter has 2 Masters from Cornell. In some kind of horticulture. She can't even get a job in that field. Makes like $19 per hour in NY somewhere, sometimes 90+ hours per week to get by.
She has been paying back the loans for years. Recently her (perhaps $100K) debt was forgiven. I absolutely cringe even typing this. Today she understands those disastrous college decisions. A little late, doncha think? The whole thing is beyond any common sense I can come up with.

Who was to blame? Plenty to go around...

• herself
• her parents
• her advisors
• whoever gave her those loans

Kids are told, from a very young age, that they should pursue their “dream”. Well, Ok, sure, of course they should.

But nobody ever explains what boundaries and thought should go into taking on a $100,000 in debt.

If your dream is to work for next to nothing, in a field you love, then taking on six figure debt is incredibly foolish. Her teachers, her parents, her peers, her counselors, and her college/university are all culpable for this awful decision.

I’ve written about this before.

Here, for example…

Post in thread 'Is medical school worth the debt in the long run ?'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-the-debt-in-the-long-run.302837/post-4985761

By the way, I write this, five years after that linked post above, as my youngest, who graduated from college in 2022, Magna Cum Laude, with a degree in Molecular Biochemistry and Biophysics, is wrapping up her first year of medical school. She is in an MD/PhD program at a great school. Her program is fully funded. That means that her tuition is covered, and she gets a stipend for living.

No student loans for medical school in her case.

A contrast with her sister, who is a surgeon, and will be paid well in the very near future. She was willing to take on loans to get through medical school, and I discussed that in the linked thread.

But my youngest made a calculated set of decisions, and since she wants to do pure research, and an MD doing research is paid 1/3 of what a surgeon makes, avoiding loans was absolutely important to her. She had the academic cred to get into a top school, that had funding, in order to make that happen.

 

[Dave Hess]

The table got flipped after 2008 with fewer homes built coupled to people able to work remotely and more flexible so the sup


30 years ago I was 22 starting as engineer out of college at $34k/year. College instate public itself cost $40k for 4 years locally.

Purchased a Honda civic for $14k with ac power windows sunroof etc. Bought a small homr for $110k with 3% down and some closing costs , let’s say $5k. It was a 9% interest rate. Also taxes were only $1500/year.

Flip to 2024 same college/degree is $120k starting salary is now $70k, same car is $20k now for base civic (not bad increase) and that home requires $100k deposit for 20% due to $525k value. Properties taxes now $5500.

Many barriers now…..

My dad was an airline A&P mechanic working at Pan Am.
- 4 kids
- 2 cars
- 3/2/2 house
- High quality food and groceries
- Stay at home wife to raise the kids
- Emergency fund and cash in the bank
- Comfortable and conservative lifestyle

^^^ This can NOT be done in 2024 with the same family situation as above with only 1 paycheck. ^^^
4 kids are very, very expensive to raise.

The house was purchased new for $35K back in 1971….. today that house is worth around $750-800K.

 

[JHZR2]

That’s statistical nitpicking.

No matter how you characterize it, houses have increased in size by roughly 30% since 1992.

So, the cry, “I will never have what my parents did” is disproved by the simple fact that they already have more than their parents did.

You cannot hand wave away. The fact is that houses are larger, have more luxuries, more standard appliances, and nicer finishes and they did 30 years ago.

You can’t simply say “the standard has improved” without acknowledging the fact that the improved standard is representative of a higher standard of living.

Everybody complains about about the cost of living, without recognizing that it is significantly better than it was 30 years ago.

The average cost of a car has not increased that much compared with inflation. But the average car 30 years ago had nothing compared with what you see on today’s cars. The average car in 1992 did not have airbags, antilock brakes, side impact protection, Bluetooth, satellite radio, navigation systems, LED lighting, and the incredible efficiency that comes from better fuel systems, more sophisticated transmissions and hybrid powertrains.

So, while the cost is the same, what you get is a great deal more. That’s an increase in the standard of living.

So, when people say “to live comfortably“, they’re defining comfortably as being the top 10%.

But average people now love as well as the top ten percent did 30+ years ago. Everything that goes along with your increased standard and technology, whether it’s air-conditioning, connectivity, entertainment systems, or the amount of square footage per person, all of that stuff, has gotten dramatically better over the last 30 years.

The average person in this country now lives very well compared with how they lived 30 years ago and very well compared with the rest of the world.

I don’t think it’s as much the matter of “I won’t have ____”. That’s BS thinking for anyone proactive and hard working. Some may get it easier, some harder… some for more investment of time and education, some less….

I think at large it’s the matter of how much of it they got in debt, and at the cost of long-term (e.g., time in the market) long-term savings.

There’s plenty of jealousy to go around too. Some of it warranted, some not. Some perspectives that how ___ made their riches is stupid or frivolous, or my favorite, the “evil inheritor” of a bunch of money… but that affects people, and creates these ridiculous protests and whiners. Not that all their points are intrinsically wrong, but the tact, messaging, etc. is.

I agree, comfortably is probably the top 10%, maybe more. So what? Going back to my back of the envelope assessment, it’s not really all that much stuff in reality. A house that’s on par with averages, a few new cars, the right and prudent level of savings, some niceities.

Regarding new homes, maybe new build homes are bigger and have more. But there are millions living in mature, long-existing neighborhoods that aren’t like that. Most of the nicest neighborhoods in any city or area are like that. From before wwii. Not McMansions with Home Depot trim, press wood doors, garbage wasteful designs. No thanks. But by default all these folks live in upgraded versions of what their grandparents and parents lived in.

I think we need to look into inflation adjusted costs a bit more. Yeah, cars are definitely contented much more these days. But look at the stupidity of it. Look at trucks. You can buy the truck, the options double the price! Arbitrary? Likely…. The fact that the market is unable to support decent similarly contented cars is interesting. What would their price point be? I think that the cpi/inflation considerations consider improved and increased capabilities in the basket of goods (e.g., the Bluetooth, airbags, etc) when evaluating cost increases.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yeah that’s an interesting situation.

I always find it funny when folks look at mortgages as free money. The money lost in interest is still insane. It’s just less insane than at the current rates.

It’s not free. For a 30yr loan, you pay 50% more than the home value at 3%, and it just gets worse:

View attachment 219201View attachment 219202View attachment 219203

At 6% you pay more in interest than the property value, and at 9% it’s nearly double the property’s value in interest.

Staggering amounts of money for most people. Sure, it used to be that you could deduct it from taxes… and notionally, appreciation offset the huge amounts of money out the window.

Certainly not “free”. More like a necessary evil.

Totally disagree. Sure your numbers are correct but do not tell the whole story. Again, debt is using other people's money to gain an asset. You are buying money... I see your point but don't consider it evil; it's just business.
I paid $330K for my home, took out a 2nd to remodel (got screwed by a contractor on that deal). Re-fied time and time again to minimize interest expense. Today our home would sell for $2M in 1 day. What if I had rented for all these years?
Wifey bought a 2/2 condo in nearby Campbell; took out a loan for like $100K years ago. That's probably $850K easy. By the way, we could rent the condo for $3500 per month if we chose to do so.

Everything was paid off years ago. Play the long game.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Kids are told, from a very young age, that they should pursue their “dream”. Well, Ok, sure, of course they should.

But nobody ever explains what boundaries and thought should go into taking on a $100,000 in debt.

If your dream is to work for next to nothing, in a field you love, then taking on six figure debt is incredibly foolish. Her teachers, her parents, her peers, her counselors, and her college/university are all culpable for this awful decision.

I’ve written about this before.

Here, for example…

Post in thread 'Is medical school worth the debt in the long run ?'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-the-debt-in-the-long-run.302837/post-4985761

By the way, I write this, five years after that linked post above, as my youngest, who graduated from college in 2022, Magna Cum Laude, with a degree in Molecular Biochemistry and Biophysics, is wrapping up her first year of medical school. She is in an MD/PhD program at a great school. Her program is fully funded. That means that her tuition is covered, and she gets a stipend for living.

No student loans for medical school in her case.

A contrast with her sister, who is a surgeon, and will be paid well in the very near future. She was willing to take on loans to get through medical school, and I discussed that in the linked thread.

But my youngest made a calculated set of decisions, and since she wants to do pure research, and an MD doing research is paid 1/3 of what a surgeon makes, avoiding loans was absolutely important to her. She had the academic cred to get into a top school, that had funding, in order to make that happen.

You forgot the critical part where your children had parents who understood finance.

 

[JHZR2]

Totally disagree. Sure your numbers are correct but do not tell the whole story. Again, debt is using other people's money to gain an asset. You are buying money... I see your point but don't consider it evil; it's just business.
I paid $330K for my home, took out a 2nd to remodel (got screwed by a contractor on that deal). Re-fied time and time again to minimize interest expense. Today our home would sell for $2M in 1 day. What if I had rented for all these years?
Wifey bought a 2/2 condo in nearby Campbell; took out a loan for like $100K years ago. That's probably $850K easy. By the way, we could rent the condo for $3500 per month if we chose to do so.

Everything was paid off years ago. Play the long game.

Note I mentioned appreciation. Sure, that adds up too. Nowhere did I say that one should just mindlessly rent or not make the stretch. But the example you give may not be the same in nowhere, USA.

You using CA real estate which is more or less irrelevant to the rest of the country. The person who borrowed $100k or $300k, even if at 3%, didn’t see the same returns even in the hot market, as you did in this one unique situation.

So to tell the person living (for whatever reason that they may wish to), in some small town in flyover country, that they’ll get huge returns, is a disservice. Returns, yes. And they’ll pay a big portion of them as interest to sit on that loan. The math doesn’t lie. And the appreciation doesn’t always happen at an insane pace…. For every CA edge case there’s the evaluation of low single digit returns in RE when interest and upkeep and taxes and all are considered. Granted, using someone’s money to then get a place to rent and get paid for with someone else’s money is a neat trick… but we’re talking primary residences…

No… Not free.

And not that I have a better option. As I said, a necessary evil.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Note I mentioned appreciation. Sure, that adds up too. Nowhere did I say that one should just mindlessly rent or not make the stretch. But the example you give may not be the same in nowhere, USA.

You using CA real estate which is more or less irrelevant to the rest of the country. The person who borrowed $100k or $300k, even if at 3%, didn’t see the same returns even in the hot market, as you did in this one unique situation.

Someone tell the person living for whatever reason that they may wish to, in some small town in flyover country, that they’ll get huge returns. Returns, yes. And they’ll pay a big portion of them as interest.

Not free.

And not that I have a better option. As I said, a necessary evil.

It is very relevant. Living somewhere is a choice. It's part of investing. The Valley is fueled by the best and brightest from around the world who come here for the opportunity.

Good conversation.

 

[Astro14]

It is very relevant. Living somewhere is a choice. It's part of investing. The Valley is fueled by the best and brightest from around the world who come here for the opportunity.

Good conversation.

Wait a second, are you taking credit for the extraordinary luck you have had?

You moved there because you knew there would be incredible appreciation in real estate over the next three decades?

You knew that?

And everyone else who wants to be successful should have a crystal ball as clear as yours?

Able to see trends in real estate three decades in the future?

 

[PandaBear]

I don't think you can group by state. Each state has expensive and affordable area.

 

[JHZR2]

Wait a second, are you taking credit for the extraordinary luck you have had?

You moved there because you knew there would be incredible appreciation in real estate over the next three decades?

You knew that?

And everyone else who wants to be successful should have a crystal ball as clear as yours?

Not to pile on…. But I’d like to see the case for someone in Fishers, IN, or Springfield, MO, or even outside of the hustle and bustle in “hot” states like CO or UT.

I’m super happy for Jeff, but it’s a unique microclimate.