I'm Considering Nitrogen vs Air Again

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Your CFI is wrong.

Straight up.

Needs to brush up on his basic science if he wants to get an ATP someday.

Nitrogen follows the ideal gas law. If it did not, then the 78% Nitrogen mixture known as AIR would not follow it either, right?

Nitrogen is used in commercial aircraft due to flammability concerns when a tire gets heated to hundreds of degrees.

The temperature swings are true, -70C to +250C. Normal temps. Day in and day out. The pressure during those temp changes follows the ideal gas law.

The tires are 28 or 32 ply rated, and handle tremendous load and speeds. They’re rated for 205 KTS, or about 235 MPH. On landing, they go from zero rotation to 150+ MPH nearly instantly, with a bit of rudder skidding off as they accelerate.

I suppose the moisture in the air doesn't follow the ideal gas law, as it's actually liquid OR gassy depending on temperature. So it's not the Nitrogen but lack of moisture that reduces pressure variations.

Race car tyres get to high temperatures aswell, so I can see a reason to make sure the fill of the tyres is as dry as possible. If your road car tyres get hot enough to turn the water vapor into steam in a pressurised tyre, the car is likely on fire anyway.
 
I'm not saying nitrogen is necessary for tires, but what is so great about putting moisture retaining oxygen in tires? It is not better. They charge the shock absorbers on your car with nitrogen instead of compressed air because it works better. I don't know much about the subject of dew point, but nitrogen is very dry at a dew point of -94 degrees, and not full of water vapor that turns from a vapor to a liquid as the temp drops, and then turns to frost at colder temps. Wet compressed air cannot be better for tires, or wheels in cold climates. Does the Ideal Gas Law include water in the calculation?
https://cyclinic.com.au/blogs/suspension/nitrogen-in-your-suspension
 
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Air is 78% nitrogen. Unless you put a vacuum on your tires before filling with nitrogen, you don't have a pure mix of nitrogen.

I'm not going to pay for nitrogen fills.
it's not about getting pure nitrogen, it's about slowing down the leak rate of his tires. Do the math, won't be much oxygen left after filling with nitrogen. All that said, I would just start my compressor and use air a few times more often a year. You should be checking your tires every few months anyways.
 
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A snail was robbed by a turtle and the Investigators asked what happened.
Snail said Iiii dooont knoooow … iiit aaalll haaappened sooo faaaast
 
I expect there would be no measurable difference in the rate of diffusion between air and "pure" nitrogen through a tire wall or a tire valve stem.

Paying for Nitrogen is a waste of money. But there's no harm in using it - except to your wallet.

If you think N2 is a waste of money for you, if you seem to see no benefit from it, than that's one thing, but don't make blanket remarks such as
"paying for nitrogen is a waste of money" because for many people, it's not a waste of money.

Read "Traction's reply above a few times. It might teach you some things about science and the many real benefits of running N2.
Why are some of you people so resistant to new things?

"Common oxidizing agents are oxygen, hydrogen peroxide and the halogens".
What effect do you think moist oxygen might have on the insides of a tire and rim, over several years?
 
it's not about getting pure nitrogen, it's about slowing down the leak rate of his tires. Do the math, won't be much oxygen left after filling with nitrogen. All that said, I would just start my compressor and use air a few times more often a year. You should be checking your tires every few months anyways.
The permeability rates are about the same. The molecular size of O2 and N2 are about the same.

You don’t really slow down the leak rate much by using N2 and if you need air every month of constant temperature, you have a mechanical leak, like bead seal, valve stem, puncture, whatever, because tires simply aren’t that permeable that significant gas is flowing through them all the time.

Further, if we are talking permeation of gas through the tire, then O2 will flow from higher concentration (21% in air) to the lower concentration in your tires via the law of partial pressures to which CapriRacer referred earlier, so you’re going to get oxygen in your tire, even if you were to completely evacuate all gas from your tire and fill with pure N2.

The commercial concentrators advertise 95-98% N2, so they’re not a pure fill and they’re also not pulling a vacuum on your tire, leaving some air in the tire, so no car tire filled with them is ever going to have pure N2 in it.

To your point, just use air and check your tires more often, I couldn’t agree more.

But use dry air from a good compressor, not some gas station piece of junk that spits out water.

Water vapor follows the ideal gas law, too, but phase changes in water can cause big pressure variations, depending on the concentration in your tires.
 
If you think N2 is a waste of money for you, if you seem to see no benefit from it, than that's one thing, but don't make blanket remarks such as
"paying for nitrogen is a waste of money" because for many people, it's not a waste of money.

Read "Traction's reply above a few times. It might teach you some things about science and the many real benefits of running N2.
Why are some of you people so resistant to new things?

"Common oxidizing agents are oxygen, hydrogen peroxide and the halogens".
What effect do you think moist oxygen might have on the insides of a tire and rim, over several years?

Nothing?

I’ve got 18 year old alloy wheels on cars that were filled with air for that long and run in winter and other harsh conditions.

They’re clean, and frankly, pristine inside because I was careful not to introduce water into the tires through moist air from junk compressors. I know because I put tires on the car last year. Those wheels are great. No corrosion. No issues.

The key advantage of nitrogen is the fact that it’s dry.

If you can’t get dry air, then, OK, fill with Nitrogen. It’s better than wet air.

But it’s not magic. Nitrogen will change pressure with changes in temperature. Nitrogen will permeate out of the tire. Nitrogen will leak through a mechanical defect. You still have to check your tires and you will still have to add nitrogen in the fall when the temperature drops.

Why are some people so resistant to simple science?

Ripping people off through marketing isn’t new, even if selling them Nitrogen for their tires is a new take on it. It’s not as bad, as say, Radium as a pain treatment, which was sold to people a century ago, and killed them quickly, and in horrible ways, but you’re being sold a Bill of falsehoods when salesmen tell you that Nitrogen “seals up the tires” or “doesn’t need to be checked” or some of the other patently ridiculous things I’ve seen in this and your previous thread. Frankly, if 90% nitrogen, which you’re actually getting, did any of the miraculous things for which you’re paying, then the 78% Nitrogen in dry air would do the same.

The real problem is here:

I never even took chemistry and I wouldn't need to take chemistry to notice the benefits I got when I ran nitrogen in my tires. The tires lasted me 10 years and about 40,000 miles. I'd say I did well with them. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Knowing chemistry, even simple high school chemistry, would help you see through the sales pitch, and understand what Nitrogen can, and cannot, do for you in your tires.
 
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I want to change them, but I'm still running N2 filled tires on my 2000 M Roadster that I installed date coded 2004, and they still look new. They don't stick as good anymore, but that's more from the O2 on the outside trying to get into the tire. Rubber bands crumble exposed to O2 over time, but would last indefinitely in N2.
 
I want to change them, but I'm still running N2 filled tires on my 2000 M Roadster that I installed date coded 2004, and they still look new. They don't stick as good anymore, but that's more from the O2 on the outside trying to get into the tire. Rubber bands crumble exposed to O2 over time, but would last indefinitely in N2.
How would the rubber bands last in nitrogen exposed to sunlight?
 
Costco covers their tires with nitrogen; nothing bad to say about nitrogen, very stable

The question is when they inflate the tires from the mounting machine is it actually nitrogen? Do they only have 1 nitrogen compressor they use to power the equipment and power tools?
 
The question is when they inflate the tires from the mounting machine is it actually nitrogen? Do they only have 1 nitrogen compressor they use to power the equipment and power tools?
One would not use the output from a nitrogen generator (actually an oxygen depleter) as general shop air. That would be like watering your lawn using output from a reverse osmosis system.
 
I‘d hate to see widespread use of N2 for tires … it’s just going to effect price structure overall … and now I have added safety risks in terms of potential energy and oxygen deprivation around the shops …
Oxygen deprivation? From where? The nitrogen generator would slightly increase the local oxygen concentration around the machine. But it is so small it would never matter and there is plenty of convection and airflow to prevent anything like that from happening.
 
One would not use the output from a nitrogen generator (actually an oxygen depleter) as general shop air. That would be like watering your lawn using output from a reverse osmosis system.

If I am understanding it correctly, at Costco claiming to put nitrogen in tires. It is actually not true if they are pumping it from the shop air. Since their nitrogen compressor is seperate. Correct?
 
If I am understanding it correctly, at Costco claiming to put nitrogen in tires. It is actually not true if they are pumping it from the shop air. Since their nitrogen compressor is seperate. Correct?
I’m not sure what you’re saying. Either they have a nitrogen concentrator or they have bottled nitrogen. If they have neither one of those then it’s not “pure” nitrogen that’s going in the tires. Shop air may feed the concentrator however.
 
Oxygen deprivation? From where? The nitrogen generator would slightly increase the local oxygen concentration around the machine. But it is so small it would never matter and there is plenty of convection and airflow to prevent anything like that from happening.
To have a dedicated membrane unit it a sizable investment. The case I heard about was storing cylinders in an area also used to do paperwork.
 
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