If you were to help me build a computer...

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
now what are you going to do with the new pc? more than likely you can get by with a system similar to the amd setup I recently did...


Yes, I absolutely could use the system that you just built. The more I think about it, the more I don't necessarily want/need new hardware NOW, but I want to get out of my current cycle of buying new OOB computers every 5 years because I always max the architecture out soon after I buy them anyway. Even if I keep close to the same hardware specs I have now, but move into a standard ATX type case, I think it's worth it because I would/could have that machine quite literally as long as care to keep the case. As hardware improves, I can replace what I want to replace as I want to replace it, rather than springing for a whole new setup, as I have to with Dell.

As I look at options, I believe I will stay with integrated video, at least for now. Right now, I have the best video card I've ever owned in a computer system, which is an nVidia GS8400 with 512 MB of RAM. I think even the most basic of integrated video systems on a motherboard today will meet or exceed what I already have. I also think I would prefer a motherboard with USB 3.0.

I have two questions that came up yesterday evening as I was looking at this stuff.

For a basic-to-moderate home user like myself, the difference between AMD and Intel is largely going to be brand preference, right? It appears that there's a hair more value with AMD, but they appear to be pretty similar. I've personally owned both before, so don't really have much of a preference either way.

And second, I've only owned OEM stuff before, and the BIOS on OEM stuff is typically pretty simple. I assume that there will be an ASUS BIOS software on this ASUS board. Is there a lot more configuration/customization options in aftermarket BIOS software, or is all BIOS software generally the same or close to the same?

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But then just using the OS without a valid license is no different than when the Chinese copy software, music, and what not without paying the authors.

So I know no-one here is suggesting anyone go the route of the Chinese and pirate software.

Given all the concern about jobs going to China and complaints about China, I'm sure everyone is running on licensed copies of their chosen O/S and not pirated copies.


Not really. If I buy a copy of Windows, and then upgrade my system, the parts that came out aren't having the same OS loaded back on them. They are either sold-off individually or put together as a used system with a new license for somebody in the market.

Retaining the hard drive, and doing an in-place upgrade on new hardware with the same OS, whilst the old hardware is retired or recycled in some manner is in no way similar to the Chinese copying anything. That assertation is ridiculous.


I think they care in terms of support. If you buy an OEM copy like those that come with a DELL, they very much care that you are migrating that to a new machine. Because the price is set lower because DELL is going to provide support for the OS.

Even though MS is a competitor, I'm still against going against the licensing agreement just because someone doesn't want to spend another $100+ to follow the terms.

If you don't want to pay, don't run their OS. If you want to run their OS, then follow the license agreement.

The comparison to the Chinese is not in the HOW it's in the respect for the licensing agreement. Both examples display a lack of respect for that agreement. That's how they are the same.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But then just using the OS without a valid license is no different than when the Chinese copy software, music, and what not without paying the authors.

So I know no-one here is suggesting anyone go the route of the Chinese and pirate software.

Given all the concern about jobs going to China and complaints about China, I'm sure everyone is running on licensed copies of their chosen O/S and not pirated copies.


Not really. If I buy a copy of Windows, and then upgrade my system, the parts that came out aren't having the same OS loaded back on them. They are either sold-off individually or put together as a used system with a new license for somebody in the market.

Retaining the hard drive, and doing an in-place upgrade on new hardware with the same OS, whilst the old hardware is retired or recycled in some manner is in no way similar to the Chinese copying anything. That assertation is ridiculous.


I think they care in terms of support. If you buy an OEM copy like those that come with a DELL, they very much care that you are migrating that to a new machine. Because the price is set lower because DELL is going to provide support for the OS.

Even though MS is a competitor, I'm still against going against the licensing agreement just because someone doesn't want to spend another $100+ to follow the terms.

If you don't want to pay, don't run their OS. If you want to run their OS, then follow the license agreement.

The comparison to the Chinese is not in the HOW it's in the respect for the licensing agreement. Both examples display a lack of respect for that agreement. That's how they are the same.


I deal with OEM Microsoft all the time, I only ever buy OEM copies of their products.

I can tell you, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that on a built system, if the board dies or is replaced, you need to reactivate it, you tell them that the board was replaced, that they will give you a re-activation code without issue. They just want to be sure you aren't putting it on a new system and then running that copy of two machines. That has been my experience with them for many, MANY years. You bought a licence to use the software on ONE PC. If the contents of that PC changes, as long as it continues to be run only on ONE PC, they don't seem to care.

Does this "jive" with their license agreement? Maybe not. But that has been my experience with them.

 

[1 FMF]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

(1) I want to get out of my current cycle of buying new OOB computers every 5 years, As hardware improves, I can replace what I want to replace as I want to replace it, rather than springing for a whole new setup, as I have to with Dell.

(2)As I look at options, I believe I will stay with integrated video, at least for now. Right now, I have the best video card I've ever owned in a computer system, which is an nVidia GS8400 with 512 MB of RAM. I think even the most basic of integrated video systems on a motherboard today will meet or exceed what I already have. I also think I would prefer a motherboard with USB 3.0.

(3) For a basic-to-moderate home user like myself, the difference between AMD and Intel is largely going to be brand preference, right? It appears that there's a hair more value with AMD, but they appear to be pretty similar. I've personally owned both before, so don't really have much of a preference either way.

(4)And second, I've only owned OEM stuff before, and the BIOS on OEM stuff is typically pretty simple. I assume that there will be an ASUS BIOS software on this ASUS board. Is there a lot more configuration/customization options in aftermarket BIOS software, or is all BIOS software generally the same or close to the same?


1, that's what i did, more so because I wanted high end graphics and didn't want to pay thru the nose from dell for a card that's 2nd or 3rd generation. And with oem's like dell, their motherboard and power connectors are proprietary and don't conform to ATX and other standards completely, so your hands are tied with upgrades and mods and you have to go through the oem.

2, buying a power supply unit (PSU) there are 2 ways you can go, this will determine your future unless you don't care about shelling out more $ for a new psu. Either way buy a name brand like corsair or antec because the cheaper ones tend to last only a couple years and then pop and often fry the motherboard, or cause system instability, so check reviews on PSU's. A good site is guru3d.com. You can either go less expensive and buy around a 400 watt that will suffice but allow little room for future upgrades but will be most efficient since it's operating at it's 50%-75% load all the time. That's what I did on my AMD for the wife. Or you can pick up a 700+ watt PSU and not have to worry for a long time about it not handling future hardware- graphics cards if you ever get a good one will pull 150+ watts. Modular psu's are very nice so i recommend those, worth the extra $.

3. there is A LOT more value with AMD. if you want the fastest then that is intel and you will pay for it. For normal use to even somewhat high end AMD does just fine.

4. yes the asus bios' and those on other aftermarket have tons of stuff in them and can be intimidating. but most of it you don't touch and don't have to worry about. Many aftermarket mobo's such as asus and gigabyte are geared towards enthusiasts and overclockers and provide much more functionality which in a sense is a good thing because it allows you to use all kinds of hardware specifically faster RAM. I recommend buying no less than DDR3-1600 ram, that will work on everything and is the best buy for memory. You will also get usb3.0 support better than oem's I think, although the market hasn't really adopted it yet there's very little out there that can use usb3.0. And you also get the 6gps sata-III controller which once they iron that out and SSD hard drive prices drop will be a good match.

right now if you choose amd, decide on the socket type. the newest is FM1 which has the integrated graphics and it termed an APU, but will cost more. the other current socket type is AM3 which is value and still offers good cpu selection especially the Phenom's. As for intel, stay away from lga1366 that's going obsolete and is supposed to be replaced with lga2011 i think, this is triple channel memory setup. Intel lga1156 is the first rollout of the 32nm architecture and will be a cheaper purchase than lga1155 which is "sandy bridge" and currently the fastest.

 

[OVERKILL]

There is not a "LOT" more value with AMD. An i3 offers great performance at a good price. i5, and obviously i7 is where you have to pay more. But then you get more too.

Regarding the OP's price range, if he was to go Intel, he'd be pretty much restricted to 1156 or 1155 anyway.

Agreed on Modular PSU's. They make cable routing far easier which helps tremendously with the dynamics of your case layout.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
Modular psu's are very nice so i recommend those, worth the extra $.


I love the modular-wire PSU you recommended. That definitely appeals to me, and I plan to use one. I will post in a minute what I think my road map is, in terms of buying components.

And yeah, I was looking at the new FM1 AMD architecture, but it looks like the AM3 is where I'll be at. The cost/value ratio doesn't yet work for me with the new FM1 stuff.

 

[Nick R]

AM3 is where you want to stay. Llano is great, but the CPU itself just doesn't have the clock speed I'd want in a desktop. I'd personally stick with a Phenom core chip of some variation, they are a little more expensive, but you get an L3 cache, which is very nice to have and greatly improves performance in a lot of areas. Stick with ASUS or gigabyte, the nice thing is most CPUs these days are easily overclockable, even on stock cooling, even more so on aftermarket cooling. So you can get even more performance out of the processor that you buy. If you get an AMD black edition, it's as easy as bumping the multiplier, and then maybe increaseing the voltage a few notches.

Modular PSUs are great, use HardWareSecrets.com, and anandtech.com for reviews on power supplies. They are the only two sites I've seen that properly test Power Supplies (ie put them on a programmable load, test every aspect at different loads) They also tear them apart and go through them component by component (HWSecrets more so on this side).

 

[PandaBear]

I think the value in AMD is the standardized socket that you can upgrade later (assuming the power circuitry on the motherboard can handle the extra load).

So what you can do is buy a cheap CPU and a quality MB first, then when the performance bother you or the price drop low enough, upgrade the CPU and either discard or sell the old CPU.

Intel's use of various type of socket make this route impractical, but if you are not the upgrade type but rather throw the whole machine out and buy a new one every 3-5 years type, it is not a bad choice for value either.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Wow. I had an entire post written up with links and prices and everything, and managed to close IE before I could post it. So I’ll re-write it, but without any of the links. It’s all on Newegg anyway. Comments with each.

CPU: Intel Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz 2 x 256KB L2 Cache 3MB L3 Cache LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ( $125 )
Comment: As stated before, I have no brand allegiance to Intel or AMD; I have to choose one. That said, my AMD choice was a Phenom II X4 quad core, and it came at a similar price, but doesn’t appear to have the performance of even the Core i3 (dual core), let alone an i5 (quad core). So I think I will go Intel this time.

MOBO: ASUS P8H67-V (REV 3.0) LGA 1155 Intel H67 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard ( $110 )
Comment: Basic, decent MOBO, with on-board video, which I will use initially, until or unless I upgrade to an add-on video card.

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 ( $52 )
Comment: There was at least one recommendation for the Corsair brand of memory, and it’s about 1.5x the price of the G.SKILL brand. Do you really get what you pay for here? There were multiple recommendations for the G.SKILL, so it seems to be a good brand. It also gets good reviews on Newegg. It leaves me wondering about the price delta between it and Corsair.

CASE: Antec Solo Black/Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case ( $90 )
Comment: I’ll tell you. I looked long and hard for cases. I don’t like many of them. In the vein that I really like Apple’s stuff, I like a clean look without a lot of bling or LED lights or fans, etc. Although I don’t love this case, it’s the best-looking one I’ve found. However, the only thing I would change about it is the PSU is mounted on the top. Is that really, truly, an issue? Many are on the bottom now, but I don’t know how critical, or beneficial, that really is.

PSU: Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply ( $65 )
Comment: I love that this has modular cabling. Will 550W be enough to satisfy this system, and further upgrades? Are there other PSUs with more power that still have the modular cabling?

OPTICAL: ASUS 24X DVD Burner ( $21 )

CARD READER: Koutech IO-RCM621 All-in-one USB 2.0 3.5" USB 2.0 Front Panel Multi-format Card Reader with USB 2.0 Port ( $17 )

All that is right at 500 bucks, plus or minus with shipping. Where I work, I have a near unlimited supply of HDDs, so I will not opt for the SSD at this time, and will soldier on with conventional HDDs. I guess I need to add another 150 bucks for a Windows 7 64-bit license.

What do you all think?

 

[OVERKILL]

I think it looks excellent, RAM and PSU inclusive. If you intend on beefing things up in the video department (though that really depends on how far you plan on going there), a 650 may be a better choice for a PSU. I run an 850.

 

[PandaBear]

550W on a decent PS is way more than enough if you are not doing crazy stuff (SLI or crossfire video cards, multiple drive raid, etc) and most of those OEM machine comes with around 400W only.

RAM is a bit of a [censored] shot depends on which chip brand / generation of chips they buy to put on the board. Usually those with good reviews on newegg means they are relatively good (unless they change chip suppliers).

If your MB has a compatibility list, try to stick with it just in case the board has some funny layout or clock tuning that is sensitive to some memories.

 

[1 FMF]

recommend the core i3-2105 which has the intel HD3000 graphics for $10 more. Your choice (i3-2100) has the HD2000 graphics. that's a good cpu choice to get started, and you can always pony up later for an i7 if you wish.

psu is good, will do fine with up to one graphics card < 200w power consumption. bottom or top mounted is eh, both work. bottom mounted most times require you to flip sata connectors around on the power cable or mount hd's in upside down.
ram is good, i wouldn't buy corsair either at 1.5x the price, gskill is very good and reputable; you can get bad/doa ram from any maker.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
recommend the core i3-2105 which has the intel HD3000 graphics for $10 more. Your choice (i3-2100) has the HD2000 graphics. that's a good cpu choice to get started, and you can always pony up later for an i7 if you wish.

psu is good, will do fine with up to one graphics card < 200w power consumption. bottom or top mounted is eh, both work. bottom mounted most times require you to flip sata connectors around on the power cable or mount hd's in upside down.
ram is good, i wouldn't buy corsair either at 1.5x the price, gskill is very good and reputable; you can get bad/doa ram from any maker.


In defence of Corsair, the sticks I originally mentioned were Dommies, which have huge heatsinks on them. Great for overclocking. Probably not ideal for this application in retrospect, LOL! But because of that, yes, they are far more dear than "regular" RAM. Corsair does have competitively priced "value" sticks as well.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Thanks guys. No warnings against top-mounted PSU so far, so that's a good thing! Thanks for the tip on the i3-2105 vs. the 2100; I'll have to check that out.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Thanks guys. No warnings against top-mounted PSU so far, so that's a good thing! Thanks for the tip on the i3-2105 vs. the 2100; I'll have to check that out.


If you think it is going to be a while before you spring for a dedicated card, he makes a good point. Spend the extra 10 bucks. Otherwise, if you plan on getting a card soon, don't worry about it.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Well, the "upgrade" card I have now in my Dell is an MSI nVidia 8400GS with 512 MB of on-card RAM. How would either of the Intel on-board GPUs compare with that? If this nVidia card I have now is better than the Intel integrated video, I'll use it. If either of the Intel integrated video processors are better than my nVidia card, I'll buy the better Intel solution and hold off on graphics for a while.

Edit: this is my video card, except I have the 512 MB version rather than the 256 MB version. I think everything but the amount of RAM is the same.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127296

 

[OVERKILL]

Going by the Tom's Hardware video card hierarchy

Both Intel integrated solutions are faster than that card.

 

[AccordV6MN]

if you're running win7-64 make sure your existing peripherals have drivers for win7-64. ie. printers.

 

[AccordV6MN]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Thanks guys. No warnings against top-mounted PSU so far, so that's a good thing! Thanks for the tip on the i3-2105 vs. the 2100; I'll have to check that out.


top or bottom mounted psu is just preference. the bottom mounted is arguably better air flow, thus cools better.

 

[JustinH]

Do the newer 80+ PSU's run any cooler, or is it just power savings? I was looking at getting one, but decided to get a regular antec, the reviews say that the efficiency is approaching 80+ bronze. Good enough for me, it was 19 dollars after rebate.