I wanna use a non VW approved "thin" oil in my GTI

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How does VW, the OEM requiring a 3.5HTHS constitute living in the dark ages ?

Do as thou shalt is the whole of the law...please report back with your results
 
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Use some conventional SuperTech 5w-20; It's exactly what your looking for.
It's thin non-approved oil.


LOL No doubt correct...
 
To me (owner of a 2012 VW Passat with the 2.5L I5), the bigger question is whether or not the 502.X oils are really any better or different for a shorter OCI than a high quality synthetic like say PP or M1 that's not 502 certified. I kind of have the impression that most of the certification is for long OCI, not for special engine protection.

I mean, I seriously doubt that if I ran say... M1 5w-30 on 5000 mile OCIs that anything serious would pop up. VW engines aren't made out of fairy dust and spun sugar, and there's nothing about the way my wife drives the car that would put any special pressure on the engine.

And the big advantage would be that she can take it just about anywhere and get that oil change with no issue, while for 502.x oil, it's the dealer, or some specialty European car shop, or me doing it (which ain't going to happen; I have neither the time nor the inclination).
 
I've thought about M1 0w30 instead of 0W40 for my golf but im too scared! Even though i know the oil temps never get above like 230f under hard driving.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
I've thought about M1 0w30 instead of 0W40 for my golf but im too scared! Even though i know the oil temps never get above like 230f under hard driving.


But why? Genuinely curious.
 
I typically arrive at work just as the oil temps hit 210 or 220, so its never really fully hot for very long. The gas mileage would likely be better on 0w30. I took an hour long hard canyon drive this weekend and saw an all time high of 230 oil temp. That was a twisty hill climb in 2nd.

I'm going to stay 0w40 but i must admit the temptation is there.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Let's not forget the turbo charger.

The best oil for a modern German car is one that carries the most German Manufacturer approvals. 502/505 is minimum required, but if the oil carries 502/505, LL01, M229.5, and Porsche A40 then you can be assured of excellent protection in all situations.

I have a modern VW (2012 Audi A6) and I use Royal Purple HPS 5w30 which carries no German approvals and is doing just fine. Quiet with a hint of increase in low end torque and power.
 
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Let's not forget the turbo charger.

The best oil for a modern German car is one that carries the most German Manufacturer approvals. 502/505 is minimum required, but if the oil carries 502/505, LL01, M229.5, and Porsche A40 then you can be assured of excellent protection in all situations.

I have a modern VW (2012 Audi A6) and I use Royal Purple HPS 5w30 which carries no German approvals and is doing just fine. Quiet with a hint of increase in low end torque and power.


Do you have any documentation to back it up or just "good vibes?"

I'll take a manufacturer's guarantee of performance, ie, their certification, testing, and documentation.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
I typically arrive at work just as the oil temps hit 210 or 220, so its never really fully hot for very long. The gas mileage would likely be better on 0w30. I took an hour long hard canyon drive this weekend and saw an all time high of 230 oil temp. That was a twisty hill climb in 2nd.

I'm going to stay 0w40 but i must admit the temptation is there.

What was peak and average RPM when you climbed the hill at 2nd ? Do you want to try shift down your gear so that you still at normal speed but RPM is close to redline the last 4-5 miles, to record oil temp when you arrive at work ?

Shannow did a test with his car and posted result few weeks ago, when he shifted down the gear to 2nd or 3rd and stayed at the same speed(to simulate Autobahn driving), the oil temp went up substantial within minutes, not hours.
 
The hill was climbed anywhere in the 2s 3s 4s sometimes 5k+ rpm depending on the sharpness of the turns. I wasn't on throttle the whole time since i had to slow a bit for the turn, then power out of it. Temp outside was a cool 55f or so.

I think the oil temp is related to engine load so if i'm going 80 in 5th vs 80 in 3rd i doubt it will add much more heat to the oil. When i do my 40 mile highway runs it never gets above the 210-220 range even with A/C and as fast as traffic allows driving.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
I typically arrive at work just as the oil temps hit 210 or 220, so its never really fully hot for very long. The gas mileage would likely be better on 0w30. I took an hour long hard canyon drive this weekend and saw an all time high of 230 oil temp. That was a twisty hill climb in 2nd.

I'm going to stay 0w40 but i must admit the temptation is there.


Oil in the big end bearings will be 40-60F hotter than the bulk oil temperatures.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
The hill was climbed anywhere in the 2s 3s 4s sometimes 5k+ rpm depending on the sharpness of the turns. I wasn't on throttle the whole time since i had to slow a bit for the turn, then power out of it. Temp outside was a cool 55f or so.

I think the oil temp is related to engine load so if i'm going 80 in 5th vs 80 in 3rd i doubt it will add much more heat to the oil. When i do my 40 mile highway runs it never gets above the 210-220 range even with A/C and as fast as traffic allows driving.


Nope, oil temperature is more related to RPM than load. Here's big end temp on a test engine (fitted out with thermocouples) with three bulk oil temperatures (80C, 125C, and 150C)...you can see that the temperature rise has more to do with RPM than load...the top group there is no continuation of the full load line, as the bearing failed.
big%20end%20temperature.jpg


Doing 65MPH in my Caprice, if I stop and drop a thermocouple down the dipstick hole, I get 105C...same trip in "2" at 4,000RPM, and 129-135C has been seen in quite mild ambient temperatures.

Not this is the oil that's coming off the crank and down the valley, not the bulk oil temperature that has already lost a lot of heat to the the ambient (sump temperatures with a heat gun are around 15-20C lower)
 
Shannow, interesting graph, would you say the heat from higher RPM operation is due to the pumping friction or due to the engine making higher HP up there?

I ask cause in a turbo golf it makes peak torque at 1600 and has a fairly flat torque curve, so high output can occur at nearly all RPMs. Diesels are similar and often exaggerate this in EGT temps, like pulling a hill in 6th instead of 5th is hotter that the higher RPM pull.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope, oil temperature is more related to RPM than load. Here's big end temp on a test engine (fitted out with thermocouples) with three bulk oil temperatures (80C, 125C, and 150C)...you can see that the temperature rise has more to do with RPM than load...the top group there is no continuation of the full load line, as the bearing failed.
big%20end%20temperature.jpg


Doing 65MPH in my Caprice, if I stop and drop a thermocouple down the dipstick hole, I get 105C...same trip in "2" at 4,000RPM, and 129-135C has been seen in quite mild ambient temperatures.

Not this is the oil that's coming off the crank and down the valley, not the bulk oil temperature that has already lost a lot of heat to the the ambient (sump temperatures with a heat gun are around 15-20C lower)

This is the graph I'm talking about. High RPM = high oil temp therefore a higher viscosity is needed.

The other way to look at the graph is, lower RPM = lower oil temp therefore thick oil is not needed.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
The hill was climbed anywhere in the 2s 3s 4s sometimes 5k+ rpm depending on the sharpness of the turns. I wasn't on throttle the whole time since i had to slow a bit for the turn, then power out of it. Temp outside was a cool 55f or so.

I think the oil temp is related to engine load so if i'm going 80 in 5th vs 80 in 3rd i doubt it will add much more heat to the oil. When i do my 40 mile highway runs it never gets above the 210-220 range even with A/C and as fast as traffic allows driving.

Try 80 MPH in 3rd for the last 5-6 miles you will see oil temp is much higher than 80 MPH in 5th, my guess is about 30-40F higher.

80 MPH in 3rd is about the same as 140-150 MPH in 5th on autobahn.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The other way to look at the graph is, lower RPM = lower oil temp therefore thick oil is not needed.

Until or unless you start lugging....


Or making 300 NM at 2100 RPM.

243.jpg


Or unless you want this to happen.
ts20tcf.jpg


mk5fuelpumpcamfollower.jpg


When I lived in Germany, I maybe spent 10% of my time driving on the autobahn, and most of it a reasonable 130kph. There is a window for extended high-speed driving that thicker oil gives you, but it is not the only consideration when the a German OEM specifies an oil. They take into account their engine design and expected performance in ALL situations.

Use a thin oil if you want to. There is no money to be saved and nothing to be gained.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Let's not forget the turbo charger.

The best oil for a modern German car is one that carries the most German Manufacturer approvals. 502/505 is minimum required, but if the oil carries 502/505, LL01, M229.5, and Porsche A40 then you can be assured of excellent protection in all situations.

I have a modern VW (2012 Audi A6) and I use Royal Purple HPS 5w30 which carries no German approvals and is doing just fine. Quiet with a hint of increase in low end torque and power.


Do you have any documentation to back it up or just "good vibes?"

I'll take a manufacturer's guarantee of performance, ie, their certification, testing, and documentation.

Yup getting ready for this upcoming season of racing (car is chipped and tuned to nearly 500 hp at the wheels)we just partnered with ECS Tuning and swapped out the original cams to performance ones and everything looked factory new and cams measured factory spec. But the car only has 39,000 miles so I wasn't expecting anything else. Been using RP since 15,000 miles and I usually race between 10 and 20 times during the year mainly summer.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The other way to look at the graph is, lower RPM = lower oil temp therefore thick oil is not needed.

Until or unless you start lugging....

My E430 can run up to 150-160 MPH at 5000-5500 RPM with M1 0W40 on autobahn for hours without problem. This engine is turning around 2500-2700 RPM at 75-80 MPH on So Cal hwy, no lugging what-so-ever. Once in a while I may accelerate a little hard, I may see 3500-5000 RPM for about 5-10 seconds, then back down to 2500-2700 RPM.

I am pretty sure that the oil temp of my E430 is mostly under 200-210F, while the same car on Autobahn can see 240-260F or higher.

If you use widman calculator(http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html) to graph these 2 oils: M1 0W20 and 0W40, you will see that viscosity of 0W20 at 100C is about the same as 0W40 at 120C.
 
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